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White Wolf » New World of Darkness » WOD General Discussion » Psychic: The Gifted
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Dataweaver
Thursday, November 18, 2010 2:34:11 PM
#101

"Evo_Shandor" wrote:
1) Big difference from standard major template.

a) Cross-over problems without a "power trait"

b) Game learning problems with 2 Talents that kind of replace the original "power trait"

No crossover problems. For crossover purposes, the only thing that's important about a traditional power stat is that it's what provides Supernatural Resistance. So for crossover purposes, Persona is your power stat. In terms of game learning problems, I think that your "Talents + Concentrations + Advancements" setup is considerably more radical than having multiple traits replacing the traditional one. Besides, the Possessed template from Inferno has me beat in this regard, as it uses eight traits (seven Vices plus Infernal Will) instead of a traditional power stat. BTW, the traditional functions of a power stat got partitioned three ways, not two: Scape got the energy reserve stuff, Persona got the Supernatural Resistance stuff, and Kenning kept the "add this to supernatural power checks" stuff. Incidently, this means that you shouldn't have to rewrite most of the Concentrations; they're already set up with Kenning in mind.

"Evo_Shandor" wrote:
2) 6 Talents and no standard "power trait" is majorly different.

a) Kenning as a Talent but not having Concentrations would seem odd to be the only one.
Again, not as different as Inferno's Possessed. I admit that the bit about Kenning seems odd; but that can be a feature if you present it right. In many ways, the "other five" Talents represent various "trades" that a psychic can master; someone who focuses on Kenning is striving to be a "jack of all trades, master of none".

That said, this part of it may not work; the fallback (which would involve more drastic rewriting) would be to pull Kenning out of the pools for existing Concentrations and to give Kenning some Concentrations of its own.

"Evo_Shandor" wrote:
3) I wanted to make Psychic: The Gifted different than the others, but more along the scheme of power layout. This new way is almost its own game system (based on the Storyteller System). Not quite, but I like overstating things.
Again, no more radical than the Possessed in Inferno.

"Evo_Shandor" wrote:
4) Maybe too late. I'd have to rewrite a bunch. I don't know if the game is at the point where it shouldn't change something this major or not. I've written a good bit, but I am nowhere near done. This change would alter much of the existing text. Again, maybe I'm still at an early enough phase that it isn't that big a deal. I can't really tell without looking harder.
Can't refute this one; either it's too late, or it isn't.

"Evo_Shandor" wrote:

4) Enhancing Skill checks is nice, but it seems too general. And powerful if Courses still have the Augmentations that allow for 9-again rolls and increasing Attributes with Noema.
I wanted something that links Kinetic/Awareness/Communion with existing Physical/Mental/Social traits, but in a way that distinguishes them from the other three (which are linked to the Attributes through the Power/Finesse/Resistance groups); and hey, the skills are grouped into Physical/Mental/Social sets. The exact mechanism isn't as important as the idea that (e.g.) having a high Kinesis helps you out in some way involving your physical skills. The premise that I was going for was that someone with a high Kinesis would be using it in subtle ways to "cheat" when using physical skills: curving the path of bullets when using Firearms, moving tumblers et al when using Larceny, and so on. This is also why I added an energy cost to it. Note also that my exchange rate (one die per point, and only for one class of skills) is pitiful compared to what Willpower can provide (three dice for one point, usable with any skill check).

Another possibility would be to let the psychic choose one "favored skill" in the appropriate category per dot in the Talent that gets the above benefits. Or you could scrap it altogether; it's entirely possible that Kinesis, Awareness, and Communion are useful enough already strictly due to the sheer versatility of their Concentrations, whereas the existing set of Concentrations for Scape and Persona are decidedly more limited in their applications.

"Evo_Shandor" wrote:
Incorporating Twilight makes me think. I have a Concentration for the Scape Talent called Fade (removes a Psychic from the perceptions of others). It has an Advancement (using Personage) that allows the Psychic to "Shift" to Twilight. In effect, he not only fades away from perceptions, but fades away from the world. To me Twilight meant "away from all perception".

Now, the thing your incorporation makes me think is that the Mindscape is simply how Psychics perceive these things. I'm getting a little bit of the "Arcadia vs. arcadia" feeling for it.

Mages have Astral Space, Dreamtime, Oneiros and Temenos as separate places that Mages perceive as separate.

Psychic's simply perceive all of this in a different way, the Mindscape. Like a person with synesthesia that sees a color with certain numbers or letters. Or a person tripping on LSD seeing music or tasting purple.

This means that Psychics have to interact with all of those places differently (which they will).

I wonder if any of that made sense.
It's not quite that "psychics see it all holstically whereas mages subdivide"; rather, psychics see different things linked up together differently than mages do. Psychics are aware of the Oneiroi and the Temenos, but not Dreamtime; it's too distant and alien (and mystical) for them. OTOH, they also see Twilight as another layer of the same thing, in much the same way that oWoD's Changeling: the Dreaming had a layer of the Dreaming (called chimerical reality, IIRC) that overlaid the material world. When a psychic Astral Projects, he sends his mind out into that layer of the Mindscape; when he delves into another person's mind, he's sending his mind out into a different part of the Mindscape.

And that's another difference between the psychic's conception of the Mindscape and the mage's conception of Astral Space. To a mage, there's an Astral Barrier that separates one's mind (consciousness, waking meditation, and dream meditation/waking dream) from one's soul (the Oneiros); he must make a special effort to cross that Threshold and enter Astral Space; and while he can enter another's Oneiros by means of the Temenos, he cannot cross that person's Astral Barrier into his mind; to influence another person's mind requires study of a Supernal Mystery dedicated to the Mind. To a psychic, there is no "Astral Barrier"; another person's consciousness or dreamscape is merely a different layer of the Mindscape - and is in fact a layer to which he has direct access.

I also figure that there are portals connecting Twilight to what mages refer to as the Temenos, acting in a manner analogous to how Loci connect Twilight to the Shadow. These would be areas where psychic energy pools in the physical world, and would bear similar significance to psychics as Loci have to werewolves. For the most part, mages don't deal with such things; the primary exception is the Dreamspeakers, a Legacy of shamans who are deeply invested in the Astral Realms. The Dreamspeakers have access to a Dreamland Merit that represents places in the physical world that are closely tied to places in the Dreaming (their term for Astral Space); that Merit is very similar in concept to the psychic portals that I'm thinking of.

Conversely, changelings only have access to dreamscapes; but they have the Skein with which to navigate them, whereas mages and psychics are equally out of place when navigating the Skein's strands of fate.

"Evo_Shandor" wrote:

I have considered creating a 6th Course using a 6th sense, but "The Sixth Sense" is the epitome of all Psychics. I don't think it would work. However, I was also considering the possibility of using other senses that actually exist (outside the 5). They include things like Kinesthetic or Direction senses (Wikipedia), but I thought I might save them for supplements later or something other fans could add if they didn't like the existing Courses. Changeling added all those other Courts later on. I figured what works for them…
If you end up going with Kenning as a "Jack of all Trades" idea, it makes sense to build its Course around "the sixth sense". OTOH, I could also see it being modeled after the Kinesthetic sense, given how in this view Kenning is "Psychic Finesse".

"Evo_Shandor" wrote:

It does seem as though you wrote the whole thing up thinking "The Untethered". At least to me it does. Perhaps I can incorporate parts into the Untethered.
The Untethered are indeed what I was thinking of when this idea came to me. I was trying to resolve the dilemma concerning the notion of substituting Talents for Physical Attributes, and it occurred to me that Awareness and Communion feel like Mental and Social traits, respectively. I had tentatively put Kinesis in as the Strength substitute; but the more I thought about it, the less specific to any one Physical trait Kinesis seemed. Persona worked well as a general Resistance trait; but nothing quite fit Power or Finesse. That's when I hit upon the idea that the term "Kenning" feels more like a Finesse thing to me, while Scape could be reinterpreted as a Power trait without too much effort. Dividing the existing "power stat" functions into Power (i.e., energy reserve/channeling), Finesse (i.e., improved chances of success) and Resistance aspects was the next step. And once the ball got rolling, it just kept going. You could limit this to the Untethered; but my own preference would be to maintain as much consistency between the Untethered and everyone else as possible.

What do you think of my idea for redefining Astral spirits in terms of the six Talents? It struck me as a natural extension of the idea, and similar enough to the existing Astral spirit format that conversion wouldn't be terribly difficult. One could also go with the idea that the danger of becoming Untethered is that your Ego can only go down, never up (much like ghosts can lose Morality, but never gain it); and once your Ego zeroes out, you lose your Mental and Social Attributes and become an Astral Entity, entirely reliant on your Talents.
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Evo_Shandor
Thursday, November 18, 2010 3:49:46 PM
#102

"Dataweaver" wrote:
In terms of game learning problems, I think that your "Talents + Concentrations + Advancements" setup is considerably more radical than having multiple traits replacing the traditional one.
While it is different, Changeling already did about the same by not going the Attribute + Skill + Power route that the other game lines did. It's almost all Wyrd + Attribute rolls if I recall correctly.

"Dataweaver" wrote:
Besides, the Possessed template from Inferno has me beat in this regard, as it uses eight traits (seven Vices plus Infernal Will) instead of a traditional power stat.
Yes, but not considered a Major Template.

"Dataweaver" wrote:
What do you think of my idea for redefining Astral spirits in terms of the six Talents?
Interesting. You have at least convinced me to alter my current rules for the Untethered. I think that Talents will take the place of Physical Attributes, but as long as they are still a disembodied mind they should keep their Mental and Social Attributes. I have always thought that spirits only having Power, Finesse and Resistance was done for shear simplicity.

"Dataweaver" wrote:
danger of becoming Untethered is that your Ego can only go down, never up (much like ghosts can lose Morality, but never gain it); and once your Ego zeroes out, you lose your Mental and Social Attributes and become an Astral Entity, entirely reliant on your Talents.
I think I like it.

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Don Strudel
Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:18:53 PM
#103

"Evo_Shandor" wrote:
While it is different, Changeling already did about the same by not going the Attribute + Skill + Power route that the other game lines did. It's almost all Wyrd + Attribute rolls if I recall correctly.
It's generally random. Sometimes it's Attribute + Wyrd, sometimes it's Skill + Wyrd, and sometimes its Attribute + Skill, and sometimes something else entirely.

"Evo_Shandor" wrote:
Yes, but not considered a Major Template.
Yes it is. A Possessed cannot have his template changed to another by any means whatsoever. It's as much of a major template as Purified (Immortals) or Siten Uzu (Skinchangers).

"Evo_Shandor" wrote:
I have always thought that spirits only having Power, Finesse and Resistance was done for shear simplicity.
It's done to emphasize that they have no distinction between their body, mind, and personality. They are literally made of emotion.

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Dataweaver
Thursday, November 18, 2010 4:19:41 PM
#104

"Evo_Shandor" wrote:
"Dataweaver" wrote:
In terms of game learning problems, I think that your "Talents + Concentrations + Advancements" setup is considerably more radical than having multiple traits replacing the traditional one.
While it is different, Changeling already did about the same by not going the Attribute + Skill + Power route that the other game lines did. It's almost all Wyrd + Attribute rolls if I recall correctly.
Yes; but it's not built around the notion that powers work like skills, with all uses of the power being available up front. Changeling still has Contracts with Clauses.

"Evo_Shandor" wrote:

"Dataweaver" wrote:
Besides, the Possessed template from Inferno has me beat in this regard, as it uses eight traits (seven Vices plus Infernal Will) instead of a traditional power stat.
Yes, but not considered a Major Template.
The line between Greater Template and Lesser Template is a fuzzy one, and the Possessed exist smack dab in the middle of the fuzz. After all, they do have a "Power stat" (in the form of their dominant Vice) and a special kind of supernatural juice (namely, the Infernal Will); so they're not really a Lesser Template. They even have x-splats of a sort, in the form of their choice of primary Vice. The only things missing to make them a full-fledged Greater Template are formal y-splats and the ability to raise their "power stat" all the way up to 10.

"Evo_Shandor" wrote:

"Dataweaver" wrote:
What do you think of my idea for redefining Astral spirits in terms of the six Talents?
Interesting. You have at least convinced me to alter my current rules for the Untethered. I think that Talents will take the place of Physical Attributes, but as long as they are still a disembodied mind they should keep their Mental and Social Attributes. I have always thought that spirits only having Power, Finesse and Resistance was done for shear simplicity.
In a way, I agree with you; but I don't see it as being done strictly for mechanical simplicity. Rather, I see it as a reflection of the fact that, ultimately, ghosts and spirits are less complex beings than humans or animals are. There's a reason why Pandorans, hobgoblins, zombies, ordinary animals, and pretty much every other corporeal creature has received a full complement of Attributes despite filling the same "monster" niche that ghosts and spirits belong to. Bringing this full circle, the Untethered aren't simplified in the way that ghosts and spirits are; they simply lack physicality. Thus, separate mental and social attributes, with Talents standing in for those attributes that are missing (i.e., the physical ones).

But astral entities are simple creatures, similar to ghosts and spirits. Like the Untethered, they use Talents to stand in for missing attributes; but unlike the Untethered, they also lack mental and social attributes and must rely solely on their Talents for everything that's Attribute-related.

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Evo_Shandor
Friday, November 19, 2010 5:17:53 AM
#105

"Don Strudel" wrote:

"Evo_Shandor" wrote:
Yes, but not considered a Major Template.
Yes it is.
I disagree, but I also don't consider it a Minor Template. It is missing what all Major Templates have… its own core rulebook. But different people think different things. What I should have said is "I don't consider them a Major Template." I'm sure there are many people that agree with me as well as disagree.

"Don Strudel" wrote:
"Evo_Shandor" wrote:
I have always thought that spirits only having Power, Finesse and Resistance was done for shear simplicity.
It's done to emphasize that they have no distinction between their body, mind, and personality. They are literally made of emotion.
Good point. Then the simplicity aspect was just a side effect. Thanks.
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Evo_Shandor
Friday, November 19, 2010 5:18:10 AM
#106

"Dataweaver" wrote:
Yes; but it's not built around the notion that powers work like skills, with all uses of the power being available up front. Changeling still has Contracts with Clauses.
Yeah. Your right. It is much different in that respect. I guess I never really liked the idea that everyone had to progress in the same way in order to gain 1 power. You end up with a bunch of characters with the same power layout.

"Dataweaver" wrote:
But astral entities are simple creatures, similar to ghosts and spirits.
Oops. Sorry. Missed that. I thought you were only talking about the Untethered.

I hadn't thought too much about astral entities yet. Up until now, I only thought of them as Conceptual Spirits. I'll have to admit that I don't know much about them. I've been focusing on the material world aspects for Psychics lately and pushing off the big stuff about the Mindscape/Astral for later. I am planning on picking up the Astral Realms Mage book sometime soon. Are they in it? Maybe I need someone to help that knows a bunch about the nWoD Astral Realms.

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Dataweaver
Friday, November 19, 2010 7:32:22 AM
#107

"Evo_Shandor" wrote:
I disagree, but I also don't consider it a
Minor Template. It is missing what all Major Templates have… its own
core rulebook. But different people think different things. What I
should have said is "I
don't consider them a Major Template." I'm sure there are many people
that agree with me as well as disagree.
Incidently, this whole
debate about greater/lesser, etc. is rather moot. The original concern
being expressed was that moving away from a single, clear "power stat"
would be difficult to figure out. I was pointing to the Possessed as
evidence that this is not so.

"Evo_Shandor" wrote:

I hadn't thought too much about astral entities yet. Up until now, I only thought of them as Conceptual Spirits. I'll have to admit that I don't know much about them. I've been focusing on the material world aspects for Psychics lately and pushing off the big stuff about the Mindscape/Astral for later. I am planning on picking up the Astral Realms Mage book sometime soon. Are they in it? Maybe I need someone to help that knows a bunch about the nWoD Astral Realms.
Yes, Astral Realms deals with its inhabitants; there's a whole chapter dedicated to them. That said, the basics are pretty straightforward: Astral Spirits use the same rules as Shadow Spirits. The chapter in question is mostly about cataloging the different varieties of Astral Spirits and presenting samples.
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Evo_Shandor
Friday, November 19, 2010 9:43:13 AM
#108

"Dataweaver" wrote:
Incidently, this whole
debate about greater/lesser, etc. is rather moot. The original concern
being expressed was that moving away from a single, clear "power stat"
would be difficult to figure out. I was pointing to the Possessed as
evidence that this is not so.
Agreed. I get off topic rather easily. But I do think that leaving a Power stat behind affects it because it is what players are used to in Major Templates. I'm probably not explaining myself well. Maybe I should say that it just feels wrong to me for a Major Template to not have a power stat rated 1-10.

"Dataweaver" wrote:
Yes, Astral Realms deals with its inhabitants; there's a whole chapter dedicated to them. That said, the basics are pretty straightforward: Astral Spirits use the same rules as Shadow Spirits. The chapter in question is mostly about cataloging the different varieties of Astral Spirits and presenting samples.
Hmm. Puts a little damper on redesigning astral entities when there is already a good (assuming good) set of rules for them. But I am technically doing the same with Psychics.

Are you indicating that you think all Astral beings should use the same rules (including Untethered), or that the Untethered can use the new "Talent replacing Attribute" rules and all other Astral beings work as normal?

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Evo_Shandor
Friday, November 19, 2010 12:57:19 PM
#109

I think I need a new name for the Kinesis Talent or new names for the 4 Concentrations I have under it.

The reason is the dice pool. Kinesis + Telekinesis + Kenning just looks and sounds wrong. Then there's Kinesis + Pyrokinesis or Kinesis + Cryokineis or Kinesis + Electrokinesis. Repeating the "kinesis" in each Concentration sounds redundant.

While the Kinesis Talent name makes sense and even worked back before I started combining Concentrations (because Concentration names didn't have "kinesis" as part of them), it doesn't work as well now.

I would prefer to keep the Talent name Kinesis and change the Concentration names, but I'm having trouble thinking up new ones.

Telekinesis -> ???

Pryrokinesis -> Pyrocrafting (may still work, was a Concentration name)

Cryokinesis -> Cryogenesis?

Electrokinesis -> ???

Maybe the Concentration names can simply be "Tele", "Pyro", "Cryo" and "Electro".

or not. Naming is always the hardest part of anything (especially character creation).

And just to post something slightly new…

You've already seen the Telekinesis Concentration with its new Advancements.

Here's the grouping I have for the other Kinesis Concentrations.

Cryokinesis
(Hoarfrost, Frostbite, Deposition, Freeze)

Electrokinesis (none yet)

Pyrokinesis (Pyrocrafting, Ignite, Emblaze, Roast, Fireball)

Am I missing anything that should be included? Of course, Electrokinesis needs a bunch. Ideas would be appreciated.

May get rid of "Roast" or change it to raising the temperature as I don't intend to create a Thermokinesis. Will have to do the other side with a cooling power for Cryokinesis.
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Dataweaver
Friday, November 19, 2010 1:11:52 PM
#110

"Evo_Shandor" wrote:
I'm probably not explaining myself well. Maybe I should say that it just feels wrong to me for a Major Template to not have a power stat rated 1-10.
Other than the singular form, my proposal matches up with this: Talents can go all the way up to 10.

That said, the important feature of my proposal isn't "no power stat"; it's "six Talents": one each for Power, Finesse, and Resistance, and one each for Physical, Mental, and Social. I really do think that Kinetic, Awareness, and Communion are good matches for Physical, Mental, and Social, even as is; and I likewise feel that Persona does a reasonable job of matching Resistance. The catch is that this leaves us with one Talent (Scape) and two Attribute types (Power and Resistance) that don't have good matches. And for the purposes of the Untethered and Astral Entities, Power, Finesse, and Resistance are the categories that need good matches.

"Evo_Shandor" wrote:

"Dataweaver" wrote:
Yes, Astral Realms deals with its inhabitants; there's a whole chapter dedicated to them. That said, the basics are pretty straightforward: Astral Spirits use the same rules as Shadow Spirits. The chapter in question is mostly about cataloging the different varieties of Astral Spirits and presenting samples.
Hmm. Puts a little damper on redesigning astral entities when there is already a good (assuming good) set of rules for them. But I am technically doing the same with Psychics.
Well, there aren't really rules specifically for astral entities; Mage simply uses the same rules for Astral Entities as it does for spirits. Of course, Mage also uses those same rules to handle ghost mages, rather than basing them on the ghost rules from the core book. And chthonians (also from a Mage supplement) use those same rules, despite the fact that everyone else in the Underworld that isn't "merely a ghost" uses the ghost rules plus Psyche, Keys, and Manifestations.

Granted, there's a very good excuse in this case, as Geist hadn't been published when Summoners came out. But my point is that Mage has a tendency to lump all or most of its monster types (even some that have physical forms) in under the spirit rules, even if there might be a more appropriate way to handle some of them.

"Evo_Shandor" wrote:

Are you indicating that you think all Astral beings should use the same rules (including Untethered), or that the Untethered can use the new "Talent replacing Attribute" rules and all other Astral beings work as normal?
I'm suggesting that both the Untethered and astral entities use the "Talents replacing missing Attributes" rules, with the added wrinkle that the Untethered are only missing Physical Attributes and Astral Entities are missing all of them: e.g., you use Persona instead of Stamina for an Untethered, but you use Persona instead of any of Stamina, Resolve, or Composure for an astral entity. In the case of astral entities, the traditional Resistance attribute that ghosts and spirits have gets subsumed into its Persona Talent.

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Evo_Shandor
Tuesday, November 23, 2010 5:49:48 AM
#111

"Dataweaver" wrote:
That said, the important feature of my proposal isn't "no power stat"; it's "six Talents": one each for Power, Finesse, and Resistance, and one each for Physical, Mental, and Social.

Counter proposal: (back down to 5 Talents and 1 Power Stat)

3 Talents to represent Physical, Social and Mental stats for Astral beings (note not Power, Finesse and Resistance).

Kinesis covers all 3 Physical stats in one.

Commune covers all 3 Social stats.

Awareness covers all 3 Mental stats.

For the Untethered:

Reuse 1 Talent from above and the 2 unused Talents for Physicals.

Since they already have all 3 Social and all 3 Mental stats, all that needs covered is the Physical.

Personage could cover any or all of the Physical, but is best suited for Stamina.

Scape is a tough one, but it deals with manipulating the Mindscape and manipulation is best done with Dexterity.

That leaves Kinesis to represent Strength.

Problem:

Getting rid of Power, Finesse and Resistance for Astral beings.

The main problem I see going Physical, Social and Mental is integration
with existing rules that reference Power, Finesse and Resistance. This
may take a whole page just to show how to convert, or simply use
Physical for Power, Social for Finesse and Mental for Resistance.

To move on:

Any ideas for new names? The Kinesis Talent names need changed. Too many "kinesis"es in a Talent named "Kinesis". Way to redundant.

If Kinesis is going to be organized into 4 Concentrations, the other Talents need to be organized into 3-5 Concentrations as well (with many unique Advancements for each).

I need to work on these next, but could use some ideas.

"Dataweaver" wrote:
Talents can go all the way up to 10.

I like this, but will it overpower things? I can see dice pools getting quite large (but not at first).

Talent + Concentration + ??? would yield up to 15 dice + ??? (many xp later).

But on start, rolls would have less dice.

Which brings to question, how would your 6 Talent system change the dice pools? Talent + Concentration + ??? or something else?

Smaller dice pools will cause havoc on Noema Reclaiming (trading successes to reclaim spent Noema).

The plan was to charge more and more Noema as the player used more Advancements on a Concentration, but provide a way to reclaim that Noema (because it was hard to get) by sacrificing successes (the better you did on the roll, the easier it was to perform a less powerful effect). This was why I had the dice pool equal to Talent + Concentration + Kenning.

I hadn't tested it thoroughly yet, but I figured Talent + Concentration wasn't going to be enough. Adding in an Attribute or Skill is possible, but leaves a bad taste in my mouth. For some reason, psychic powers don't seam like they should be linked to them. I should probably reconsider this. Unfortunately, I see most every possible Attribute coming from the Mental column while most Skills just don't seem relevant. Although, Empathy seems relevant for almost every Comune Concentration. I don't want to replicate Geist and assign an Attribute to each Talent and a Skill to each Concentration.

Must think some more…
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Vree
Monday, December 06, 2010 11:45:07 AM
#112

Woah, really nice PDF and site.

I gotta say it though, I'm not too pleased with the Genesis and Course selections…I don't really get the vibe that I'd want to be part of any of them. Do all of the Gifted really consider themselves to be "cursed"? I mean, these kind of things are OK for one splat group, but -all- of them? The espers as you show them seem to be a manic-depressed, useless group. You can't expect them to get stuff done. don't want to play a game that dwelves too much on Wangst over What Have I Become and Cursed With Awesome. I want to see how the gift influences their way of life (being able to read minds, intentionally or unintentionally, etc.), and what they can really do with it when they get serious.

By the way, I think that the Atomik Psioniks Add-On may be only a Google search away, it's a nice collection of psychic abilities should you need more ideas for this.

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FrostyTheSnowman
Monday, December 06, 2010 9:11:41 PM
#113

What about the suffix 'mancer' or 'mancy'. like Pyromancer, Pyromancy, and ect. It kinda infers magic use, but could still work.
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Evo_Shandor
Tuesday, December 07, 2010 5:19:54 AM
#114

"Vree" wrote:
Woah, really nice PDF and site.

Thanks. I may be focusing too much on appearance too early in its creation, but my artistic side won't let me do plain text.

"Vree" wrote:
I gotta say it though, I'm not too pleased with the Genesis and Course selections…I don't really get the vibe that I'd want to be part of any of them. Do all of the Gifted really consider themselves to be "cursed"? I mean, these kind of things are OK for one splat group, but -all- of them?

Thanks for being straight. If you have suggestions, please post them. I'm always looking for ways to improve them. What don't you like about Genesis? I am planning on changing the Courses into something slightly different. Kind of dual natured Courses. A good and a bad side for each course. Like the Eavesdroppers will have an altruistic side or a manipulative side chosen at character creation.

The whole "cursed" thing is flavored by the World of Darkness. It's a take on what it would be like to have psychic powers in the World of Darkness. In our world, it would be full of awesome. However, I see your point or at least part of it. Perhaps I can downplay it a bit.

"Vree" wrote:
By the way, I think that the Atomik Psioniks Add-On may be only a Google search away, it's a nice collection of psychic abilities should you need more ideas for this.

I'll take a look at it. Thanks. Were you part of its creation?

"FrostyTheSnowman" wrote:
What about the suffix 'mancer' or
'mancy'. like Pyromancer, Pyromancy, and ect. It kinda infers magic use,
but could still work.

I'll consider it, but it does have that magic overtone. Maybe it could work.
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Evo_Shandor
Tuesday, December 07, 2010 8:35:44 AM
#115

Here are a couple of the Course changes I've made to add options.

I'll probably end up having 10 Courses by spliting up the 5 Courses.
Thinking maybe 5 Courses that see themselves as cursed while the other 5
see it as a gift. Or at least close to that.

Let me know what you think.

Quote:

Watchers

The World is amazing. There are so many things to see and so much of it
is beautiful. Watchers love this world and wish to witness every
splendid thing.

Natural Talent: Awareness

Reinforcement: Open Mind – The Psychic soaks it all in and expands his consciousness and understanding.

All rolls using Wits gain the 9-again rule. The player may also
reflexively spend 1 Noema to add the character’s rating in Awareness as
an equipment bonus to one roll that uses the Attribute.

Bystanders

These Psychics try not to be a part of society. They feel as if they do
not belong. They watch. They avoid. They try not to be noticed.

Natural Talent: Awareness

Reinforcement: Calm Observer – By relating to the events of the
world as separate from himself, the Psychic manages to incorporate his
psychic perceptions in order to become a master of observation,
examination and reflection.

All rolls using Composure gain the 9-again rule. The player may also
reflexively spend 1 Noema to add the character’s rating in Awareness as
an equipment bonus to one roll that uses the Attribute.

Listeners

When you’re down and out, who feels your pain? The Gifted feel it. These
Good Samaritans do their best to help the less fortunate. They help
whoever they can. For Psychics that perceive another’s anguish, how can
they not help alleviate that grief? They don’t ignore their own needs,
but they can’t ignore the needs of others. By helping someone in
distress, they relieve themselves of their perceptions of that distress.
As many Psychics know, “The pain of others is also the pain of the
Gifted.”

Natural Talent: Commune

Reinforcement: Kind Communicator – Dealing with people every day
and learning the best way to work with others gives the Psychic an
advantage when communicating with people.

All rolls using Presence gain the 9-again rule. The player may also
reflexively spend 1 Noema to add the character’s rating in Commune as an
equipment bonus to one roll that uses the Attribute.

Eavesdroppers

Secrets, everyone has them and Psychics are their worst enemies.
Eavesdroppers have an all access pass to just about everyone’s secrets
and they use that pass frequently.
Eavesdroppers work with others more frequently, because they like
listening in on peoples thoughts. Some of them do so because they are
trying to understand their condition and learning the right secrets can
help. They search out knowledge and absorb all they can.

Natural Talent: Commune

Reinforcement: Smooth Talker – Prying secrets from people every
day and learning the best way to get what they want gives the Psychic an
advantage when trying to manipulate people.

All rolls using Manipulation gain the 9-again rule. The player may also
reflexively spend 1 Noema to add the character’s rating in Commune as an
equipment bonus to one roll that uses the Attribute.

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Vree
Thursday, January 27, 2011 3:48:44 PM
#116

"Evo Shandor" wrote:
I'll take a look at it. Thanks. Were you part of its creation?

Lol, I wish. No, I'm merely a fan of Mark Chas's add-ons.

Here's a thought, which occurred to me while I was reading The Equinox Road. It has a section about the "Epic troupe" style of play where players, aside from having their own side-characters, can be allowed to also have a couple of less significant side-characters to play to provide background during other player's solo scenes or to give an outsider's perspective on the events surrounding their own main characters.

Now, part of what made Changeling great was the kind of…meta-gaming stuff that simplified putting a few things in the game, almost in an MMORPG kind of style like say, Goblin fruits; and the Goblin Market is a prime example. It's basically a "call shop" command where the characters could at any point enter a sort of "shopping screen" where they could get any kind of equipment they needed; this greatly simplified giving the players stuff that they actually want while bringing those objects into the story would probably be a storytelling challenge in most games. The political hierarchy of the Vampire games is a similar metastructure.

Now, what could one do with psychics?

- Give players the option to talk to each other, even if they are not in the same location (basic telepathy). Players will probably continue to talk to each other IRL even if the party has been split up; making that an official part of the game, and see what you can do with it, could give it an interesting twist. (For example, what if the communication is not so clear and the ST regulates that players can only communicate with whispers or sign language etc.)

- Let them in on what other characters feel. A psychic can theoretically climb into anyone's heads, or be telekinetically aware of the inner workings (eg. heartbeat etc.) of people and objects around them - indeed they may not even be able to switch off this sort of hyper-awareness. So while as above, a group of psychics form a sort of hive-mind intelligence, at the same time individual psychics among other characters may be subconsciously aware of, or randomly catch glimpses of, their enviroment. For example, an exceptionally strong feeling or violent thought may be caught by the psychic randomly from people who pass him, he may find himself accidentally attuned to someone on the other side of the city, just because they were thinking of the same thing for a second, etc. That's all good storytelling meat.
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Evo_Shandor
Friday, January 28, 2011 6:02:22 AM
#117

"Vree" wrote:
Give players the option to talk to each other, even if they are not in the same location (basic telepathy).

Are you thinking "free to all characters"?

I've been working on Telepathy as a Concentration with an Advancement called "Party Line". Basically, all it takes is one of the Psychics to possess Party Line. Then, he connects the group. The better the roll, the longer it lasts. With the special cooperative ability that Psychic Circles have amoungst themselves, that time could be huge. This cooperative ability allows other Circle members to add dice to another Psychic's Concentration roll dependent on the Concentration and its use.

"Vree" wrote:
Let them in on what other characters feel.

The Mindscape does to them all the time. They just can't figure out where it is coming from.

"Fear. I feel fear. Is it mine? Is it his? Is it an echo from something bad that happened here or maybe it will happen here soon?"

Concentrations let the Psychic focus, control and understand their perceptions and powers. Otherwise, it is all fairly incomprehensible.

"Vree" wrote:
For example, an exceptionally strong feeling or violent thought may be caught by the psychic randomly from people who pass him, he may find himself accidentally attuned to someone on the other side of the city, just because they were thinking of the same thing for a second, etc.

Very good story hooks. I've been looking for more Flare examples for telepathy like effects. Thanks. You'll get a mention in the writeup, if you don't mind.

Definitions (for those that need them)

Advancement - A sub-category of a Concentration that can be learned. Adds to the Concentration's versatility.

Circle - A small group of Psychics that have banded together, like a Vampire Coterie.

Concentration - A Psychic power, like a Discipline, Gift, Spell, Etc.

Flare - An uncontrolled manifestation of a Psychics power caused by different types of triggers.

Mindscape - A "landscape" of thoughts, emotions and perceptions of everyone jumbled together that Psychics perceive.

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Evo_Shandor
Saturday, February 12, 2011 3:46:36 PM
#118

In a blatant self bump, I thought I'd let you know that I am still working on this game. I'm actually working faster than I did on the Demon game.

Updates:
I'm in the process of changing all the Concentrations into 5 dot advancing powers that are more in line with powers like Vampire Disciplines (each level gives new abilities).
I plan on at least 15 Advancements (3 from each Talent, maybe more) that work to "advance" the Concentration they are learned with.
Examples include: Telekinesis Concentration with the Proximity Advancement to allow the telekinetic to move things around corners and out of his line of sight, and the Telepathy Concentration with the Remote and Group Advancements that allow the telepath to communicate with his Circle of Psychics mentally across the city.

More updates as I see fit.

P.S. White Forums?!? It's just wrong. Think of the children. Won't somebody think of the children?
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TheKingsRaven
Sunday, February 13, 2011 12:44:37 PM
#119

Any updates on the Circle gestalt? That stuff was interesting.

Some random ideas from another homebrwer (who's ego seems to be getting out of control emotion-5.gif ):

Character creation:

The Starting points gives you 4 for Talents. Is this in addition to the one in each + Genesis + Course talents? If so it should be mentioned in the text.

On a related note I'm not too much of a fan of starting with one in everything. I can see where you're coming form but sometimes I'd like the ability to make a Psychic who's only a telepath / etc. I'm not satisfied with a Psychic game unless you can create Professor X note for note emotion-5.gif

I think Courses should give you a choice of two Natural Talents. If your Course and Genisis match up you only have one affinity power. Perhaps you get two dots to split between your Genisis and chosen Course Talent as you please.

Merits:

I'm a big fan of homebase merits. So here's an extra addition: Projection Chamber (o to ooooo) A Projection Chamber allows a Psychic to use Awareness, Commune or Scape powers at a range of Kenning * Projection Chamber miles. However this requires Remote Viewing or a similar power to target. A projecting psychic is not in twlight, however anywhere close to where he's acting he can be sensed by powers that detect the presence of a mind such as Mind Arcanum, Apokolipsi mind scanners and can be targeted by any form of "Mind Blast" power.

The Lucid Dreamer Merit gives an unfair advantage to the Demise Genisis since others don't have an equivalent.

Unless there's a metaphyiscs reasom I'm just not aware off I'd open Post Null up to characters who were never psychic nulls. It's more flexible and I can't see a reason not too.

Powers:

I'm not too sure the idea of spending Noema as Willpower is a good one. Normally when you can spend energy for bonuses it can be done alongside Willpower which means the usual methods of recharging Willpower (Virtue / Vice) still remain important. I'd suggest just getting +1 per Noema and maybe limit it to increasing mental Attributes, like Mania.

A natural ability to sense if anyone's using a psychic power nearby would make sense.

There should be a Commune Power that creates a permanent (unless actively broken) telepathic link between two people. Mostly because of how much drama it could cause when it Flairs. Imagine a Flare caused by intense emotion (Love or Hate), especially if the other person didn't realise you were psychic.

A high level extension of the power that creates a Circle might let you trade bodies like others trade clothes.

You don't have Attributes or Skills contributing to the powers rolls. This may well encourage players to focus on powers to the exclusion of mundane attributes. Might be worth making that part of Gifted culture.

The untethered:

Awesome, awesome, awesome. If only because one of my favourite games (well a mod) of all time had an untethered as a villain
The Strangers The main villain was a psychic who died and went to hell but was so powerful he could project his mind directly from hell to earth and beyond. He made contact with four equally powerful supers from different realities then brought them together to become a god like gestalt.

I'd suggest making them playable. Tone down the risk of madness to a -1 on all Ego checks. Circle Gestalts could probably be made using untethered rules.

Foundations:

I quite like the idea of a Foundation which is just an excuse to get more and more members subsumed into a giant Gestalt, their special ability might be the ability to subsume Norms. Their main enemy would be a Foundation who's got the ability to make Circles without a Gesalt at all, and include Norms in a Circle. Their goal is to make the whole world a Circle.

If Foundations grow from Circles there should be some rule Level two Gestalt rules, maybe even level 3. A far out possibility is to play these huge Gesalts.

Other splats:

I'm happy to help you hash out how Leviathans and Psychics interact. My guess is badly. Leviathans are the psychic equivalent of a nuclear waste pile. It might also annoy psychics when they see how ridiculously powerful a Leviathan is psychically. (Actually that might annoy players too, it could be a problem).
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Evo_Shandor
Sunday, February 13, 2011 9:50:49 PM
#120

Maybe I shouldn't do this after I've been drinking, but the beer keeps me from stopping myself.
(I'm sober enough to know I shouldn't talk about being drunk, but drunk enough to not really care.)

TheKingsRaven wrote:

Any updates on the Circle gestalt? That stuff was interesting.

All I have so far is that Circles can enhance there powers by touch. Maybe more to come. Depends on what ideas I get. I've been play testing with a Circle of young Psychics calling themselves the Lighthouse. So far, I haven't had them do much with the "gestalt" ability (I call it "Cooperation"emotion-5.gif, but I think I will in the next game. It can give quite a few extra dice to a Concentration roll as long as the Circle is together and not in immediate danger.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

The Starting points gives you 4 for Talents. Is this in addition to the one in each + Genesis + Course talents? If so it should be mentioned in the text.

OK. Need to make sure that I'm clear. Currently, these are the rules:
All Talents start at 1 each.
Genesis gives a 1 to it's Natural Talent.
Course gives a1 to it's Natural Talent.
2 additional Talents can be put in any the Player likes.
Hopefully that made sense.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

On a related note I'm not too much of a fan of starting with one in everything. I can see where you're coming form but sometimes I'd like the ability to make a Psychic who's only a telepath / etc. I'm not satisfied with a Psychic game unless you can create Professor X note for note emotion-5.gif

1) Think of Talents like Attributes. Everybody has at least one in an Attribute.
2) Professor X is still very likely as a character needs dots in a Concentration to have ability in a Psychic power. A character can still only have one or two Concentrations. Having a dot in a Talent like Scape doesn't mean your character can create illusions and stuff. It just means he has the "raw potential" for more. So, note, while a Psychic may have dots in all Talents, unless he has dots in a Concentration, he can't perform the power. It doesn't matter if you have 5 dots in Kinesis. If you only have Concentration dots in the Telepathy, you can only perform Telepathy (with possible learned Advancements of Telepathy that use Kinesis).

TheKingsRaven wrote:

I think Courses should give you a choice of two Natural Talents. If your Course and Genisis match up you only have one affinity power. Perhaps you get two dots to split between your Genisis and chosen Course Talent as you please.

I'll look at this. Genisis and Course still have a good chance of changing drastically.
Currently, Genesis gets a Natural Talent and Course does as well. If they are both the same, the Natural Talent starts at 3 (1 + Genisis Natural Talent + Course Natural Talent).

TheKingsRaven wrote:

Projection Chamber (o to ooooo)

I like, but I might just make it add to the range of one of the Advancements (Remote). That way a Psychic isn't limited by his Awareness Talent when using a Concentration in his "Projection Chamber".
More Merits like this may be needed.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

The Lucid Dreamer Merit gives an unfair advantage to the Demise Genisis since others don't have an equivalent.

I may remove Lucid Dreamer, but please explain you argument.
Triggers are changing some. I don't want Flares to be beneficial to the player/character. I think that simple Ego degeneration may be the preventative measure required (Note to self: Ego Lapses may need reworked).

TheKingsRaven wrote:

Unless there's a metaphyiscs reasom I'm just not aware off I'd open Post Null up to characters who were never psychic nulls. It's more flexible and I can't see a reason not too.

Do you mean you think the Merit should be open to characters after character creation or simply available to character's without the background of being a Psi Null?
I have been working on new Advancements that give tolerance or immunity to selected Concentrations for the Psychic. Perhaps the Merit will go away (or require at least one of the "Immunity" or "Nullify" Advancements).

TheKingsRaven wrote:

I'm not too sure the idea of spending Noema as Willpower is a good one.

I'm part way with you here. I introduced spending Noema as Willpower early on, because I thought of Noema as "enhanced" Willpower. It's a Psychic thing. They use their Will to perform feats. I may remove this later, but before I do, I will need more ideas on how to spend and reclaim Noema.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

A natural ability to sense if anyone's using a psychic power nearby would make sense.

Natural? Maybe. A straight Kenning roll modified by the other Psychic's Kenning (bonus as the more powerful they are, the easier it would be to sense them)? Kenning + Kenning? IFAIK, no other game does a Power Score roll like that.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

There should be a Commune Power that creates a permanent (unless actively broken) telepathic link between two people. Mostly because of how much drama it could cause when it Flairs. Imagine a Flare caused by intense emotion (Love or Hate), especially if the other person didn't realise you were psychic.

While permanent is nice, it is also easy to say they spend Noema every day to keep the link active.
Maybe a high level Merit would be best for something like that. "Open Connection" (or something like that) gives a bonus to dice rolls every time the Psychic tries to use his powers on that particular person?

TheKingsRaven wrote:

A high level extension of the power that creates a Circle might let you trade bodies like others trade clothes.

While I haven't thought specifically of body swapping, I wouldn't rule it out for high levels of a Commune Concentration. Maybe a Commune Concentration with a Personage Advancement.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

You don't have Attributes or Skills contributing to the powers rolls. This may well encourage players to focus on powers to the exclusion of mundane attributes. Might be worth making that part of Gifted culture.

I'm currently altering Concentration rolls to include Skills, but not Attributes.
I think of Talents as the Attributes of Psychics.
While I've noticed in my games that we (me and my group) seem to focus on the powers and not the Attributes and Skills behind them, this has not changed my opinion. Psychic power does not come from Strength, Wits or Composure. It is something else. Since I've currently realized how a Skill (like Empathy) can help in a use of a Concentration (like Telepathy), I have been altering Concentrations to include Skills in the dice pools.
However, I do not know how to make it part of the Gifted culture as you noted.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

The untethered:
Awesome, awesome, awesome.
I'd suggest making them playable.

Always the plan. But, they would be too powerful without a side effect (like quickly degrading Ego score or something similar). I figure the Ego would degrade quickly due (in part) to the lack of their original body. Need to make it temporary or players would stick with playing Unteathered only (at least players I game with would).

TheKingsRaven wrote:

Tone down the risk of madness to a -1 on all Ego checks.

Could you give your logic behind this. I don't quite understand why.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

Foundations:
I quite like the idea of a Foundation which is just an excuse to get more and more members subsumed into a giant Gestalt,

Not quite the reason I created Foundations. I just thought of Foundations as the next step. Once Psychic's organized, they would be organized according to particular agenda's. The government would organize who they could find. So would the military, and so on.
I don't actually see a really large number of Psychic's working together like a Circle does.
A Circle is a group who trusts each other. They merge their thoughts every now and then. It is like a group of best friends (or even lovers). Foundations are more like jobs to me.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

Their main enemy would be a Foundation who's got the ability to make Circles without a Gesalt at all, and include Norms in a Circle. Their goal is to make the whole world a Circle.

Interesting. I will need more time to think about that. Feel free to give more details as I'm sure I don't understand completely.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

If Foundations grow from Circles there should be some rule Level two Gestalt rules, maybe even level 3. A far out possibility is to play these huge Gesalts.

Never my plan to grow Foundations from Circles. Sure, some of the first Foundations may have originated from Circles, but a Psychic organization within and working with the government doesn't sound like an enhance Circle to me. But then again, I'm just one mind looking at the idea.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

Other splats:
I'm happy to help you hash out how Leviathans and Psychics interact.

My guess is badly. Probably.
While I'm not focusing on other fan splat interaction (barely anything on main splats yet), I don't think there would be too much interaction between Psychics and Leviathans. Psychics barely interact with themselves (not counting Foundations). However, I have come up with a few rules regarding other supernaturals. Mainly, what Psychic blood does to Vamps and how much harder it is to mentally affect a Vampire (all of my Alpha tests have been with a Vampire group).
Based on my limited knowledge of Leviathans, I would probably treat them similar. Animalistic minds hard to understand for a Psychic. (Let me know if I'm way off)

Thanks for the feedback.
I need all I can get.
The Psychics are coming along slowly. I'm hoping for a Beta release in a few months.

BTW, if you read what I have in a PDF, don't take everything as if it were written in stone. I'm changing lots of things as I test and get feedback. Just realize it is still in an early stage and I'm simply testing now. Once I get to the Beta stage, I'll have a better system.

And at the end of all this typing, I'm still a bit buzzed. So I'll leave you with this quote:
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
- Benjamin Franklin
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TheKingsRaven
Monday, February 14, 2011 4:59:19 AM
#121

Evo_Shandor wrote:
All I have so far is that Circles can enhance there powers by touch. Maybe more to come. Depends on what ideas I get.
I was referring to the idea that an astral entity that's the gesalt of their minds. And if their ego falls too low they might get consumed by it. I really liked that.

The idea of permement long range telepathy was also good. Everyone is always in the current scene.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
Hopefully that made sense.
It did here, but not in the PDF.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
2) Professor X
I see what you're saying, it just feels wrong to me that Professor X has any potentual for kenesis. I'm probobly just being over fussy.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
Currently, Genesis gets a Natural Talent and Course does as well. If they are both the same, the Natural Talent starts at 3 (1 + Genisis Natural Talent + Course Natural Talent).
I was actually saying that if you have the same Natural Talent for both Course and Genesis you only have one Talent at new dots * 6 exp.

So I was thinking you get one Natural Talent from Genisis, a choice of two from Course, and two dots to spend in either of them.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
I like, but I might just make it add to the range of one of the Advancements (Remote).
Missed that, I did try to make it fit with existing rules. One extra dot in Awareness per dot in Projection Chamber makes sense for low power and Awareness * Projection Chamber if you want high power. But how does remote work if you can't see for miles? Does it come with free Remote Viewing?

I'd definitely have Remote in general allow a psychic near your target to fight back with something like Mental Blast.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
More Merits like this may be needed.
I'll see what I can do. Sorry about the rubbish names.
Silent Kinesics (OOOO) Removes the gesture requirements for Kinesics. I priced it so high because you're saving on Nomina not just your dicepool.
Tripwire (OO, requires Security O and some Commune Advancement) By creating Crystals tuned to Commune and Communing your mind with them you can gain permanent awareness of the Crystals. By seeding your Asylum with these Crystals you are always aware of your abode. The effectiveness of a Tripwire is based on your Asylum's Security. If someone fails to gain entrance with Larceny you will know about it.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
I may remove Lucid Dreamer, but please explain you argument.
Well every Genesis has -3 to one single trigger. But with Lucid Dreamer your weak Trigger drops to -1. That is an advantage no other Genesis has.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
Triggers are changing some. I don't want Flares to be beneficial to the player/character.
Sounds good to me.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
I think that simple Ego degeneration may be the preventative measure required (Note to self: Ego Lapses may need reworked).
I think Ego has the uneviable position of trying to measure two things at once. It's morality, hence the presence of killing on the list, but it's also how solid your sense of self is. I'm not suggesting two separate morality like traits, but that is the only thing I can think off.

(BTW speaking of Ego. I'd make the Cursed act on good impulses as much as bad ones. They'd still be dangerous and likely to kill but they'd be a lot more unpredictable and, well, it just seems a more honest portrayal to me.

It might also be worth mentioning that some Cursed who have good ranks in Asylum Shielding are functional individuals, just trapped within their house until they develop a point of Ego.)

Evo_Shandor wrote:
Do you mean you think the Merit should be open to characters after character creation or simply available to character's without the background of being a Psi Null?
The second. But a more general Advancement might make sense.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
I'm part way with you here. I introduced spending Noema as Willpower early on, because I thought of Noema as "enhanced" Willpower. It's a Psychic thing.
Well its Noema -> Willpower that's an issue IMO. So some way of cashing in Willpower for Noema would be fine.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
Natural? Maybe. A straight Kenning roll modified by the other Psychic's Kenning (bonus as the more powerful they are, the easier it would be to sense them)? Kenning + Kenning? IFAIK, no other game does a Power Score roll like that.
I know Genius uses a Wits + Inspiration roll for things like this. Actually detection is automatic, Wits + Inspiration is for details.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
While permanent is nice, it is also easy to say they spend Noema every day to keep the link active.
Maybe a high level Merit would be best for something like that.
Neither of those sound too fitting for the example I really want. You're with someone you love, or fighting someone you hate, and the high emotions causes a Flare that leaves the two of you bound.

Now you either have to explain to your love that you're actually a psychic and have accidentally violated the sanctity of their mind in a rather extreme way. Or you and your enemy are stuck together and can't fight each other without the link sharing the pain and have to work together until you broke the link. Both sound like drama in the most awesome sense.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
While I've noticed in my games that we (me and my group) seem to focus on the powers and not the Attributes and Skills behind them
Thought so.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
However, I do not know how to make it part of the Gifted culture as you noted.
Well not mechanically, but in the fluff mention that the Gifted often seem to increase their powers at the neglect of mundane attributes. A mind reader has little need for charisma and few exercise their muscles when the brain does that job even better. Even mental attributes tend to be lacking, why study when you can just pluck answers out of other peoples heads.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
But, they would be too powerful without a side effect (like quickly degrading Ego score or something similar).
How so?

BTW needing to spend Nomina to keep themselves existing might be a more playable disadvantage.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
Need to make it temporary or players would stick with playing Unteathered only
Is that such a bad thing?

Evo_Shandor wrote:
Could you give your logic behind this. I don't quite understand why.
I just took your idea that they go mad and put a relatively low number to it.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
I don't actually see a really large number of Psychic's working together like a Circle does.
It probably wont be common, most normal indivudals wouldn't want to share their minds with a large group, you can't trust everyone in a large group, but there's bound to be a psychic cult or two which is essentially a huge Circle.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
Interesting. I will need more time to think about that. Feel free to give more details as I'm sure I don't understand completely.
It's a commonish Sci-Fi idea: Eliminate war, famine, and poverty by turning mankind into a hive mind.

I just suggested two very different approaches for how to do it, naturally the two are fighting each other. The very big circle with no gestalt is all about bringing individuals together as a community. The best example would be the Martians from A Miracle of Science. (Their Quote could even come from the Martians "Does it hurt, not to be able to hear other people's thoughts?" (the reply was "I didn't used to think so" ) ).

The other was all about destroying individuality and drowning every consious in one super psychic god. I can't think of any good fiction example for that. Maybe Childhood's End but I havn't read it myself.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
Animalistic minds hard to understand for a Psychic. (Let me know if I'm way off)
Afraid so. A Leviathan's mind is usually described as threefold: Beast, Man and God. Which sort of map to Id, Ego&Superego and Id.

So there's a part of every Leviathan that is animalistic but in rather bizarre and often dysfunctional ways. And every Leviathan also has a side that's so unanimalistic that it's incapable of making direct action, it only has the cunning plan part of the brain to work with. And you've got the human stuck in the middle trying to stop the other two parts from going too far and getting themselves into a fight they cannot win (a major Leviathan theme is that humans, not Leviathans, are the successful species) and maintain individuality from the species collective subconscious: Leviathans have their own "astral realm" naturally it looks like an Ocean and it's pretty much subconscious only. Higher thoughts and ideas don't show up.

But I was actually thinking that the real Gifted-Leviathan issues would come from the fact that Leviathans are very very psychic. Their psychic projective abilities are through the roof, they can cause earthquakes and hurricanes (good luck hiding from humans after that one) or create contagious psychic effects that target drams, and like it or not every Leviathan is permanently broadcasting "Fear me! Worship me!" at everyone they meet. It tends to create cults.

I don't know how Psychics would perceive that but I imagine it can't be nice.

BTW, I noticed Savorers don't have a quote. Here's something from Babylon 5 that might inspire you emotion-5.gif "Do you know what it's like when telepaths make love, Commander? You drop every defense, and it's all mirrors: reflecting each other's feelings deeper and deeper - until, somewhere along the line, your souls mix."
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Dreaminggod
Monday, February 14, 2011 10:42:47 AM
#122

Evo, for what it's worth, this is GREAT work; I unfortunately am not a home-brewer, and can do little to contribute, but this is pure gold. I love it.

On another note, looking over Leviathan, and I must say…. if I ran a P:tG game I'd use a Leviathan as a major antagonist.
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TheKingsRaven
Monday, February 14, 2011 11:47:10 AM
#123

Dreaminggod wrote:
On another note, looking over Leviathan, and I must say…. if I ran a P:tG game I'd use a Leviathan as a major antagonist.
As a Leviathan author I'll take that as a huge compliment emotion-1.gif
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Dreaminggod
Monday, February 14, 2011 12:06:54 PM
#124

TheKingsRaven wrote:
Dreaminggod wrote:
On another note, looking over Leviathan, and I must say…. if I ran a P:tG game I'd use a Leviathan as a major antagonist.
As a Leviathan author I'll take that as a huge compliment emotion-1.gif

Oh, it is intended to be. I spent the last hour or so reading Leviathan: the Tempest, it's really good.

I'm envisioning a campaign where the Circle works for somebody (The government, a company, ext…) to investigate a strange cult popping up, their investigation leads them into a cult headed by a tyrannical god-king, where they have to do investigation, breaking the power base of the cult, contact mutual enemies of the Leviathan(s) who may or may not want the help of the Circle, and hell… maybe even Psychics that are part of the cult….
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Evo_Shandor
Monday, February 14, 2011 3:21:58 PM
#125

TheKingsRaven wrote:
Evo_Shandor wrote:
Hopefully that made sense.
It did here, but not in the PDF.

I'll have to work on that then. Good to know.

TheKingsRaven wrote:
I was actually saying that if you have the same Natural Talent for both Course and Genesis you only have one Talent at new dots * 6 exp.

So I was thinking you get one Natural Talent from Genisis, a choice of two from Course, and two dots to spend in either of them.

OK. Got you now. While I haven't made the decision yet, I have been thinking about only having one Natural Talent. I figure it would help keep a Psychic focused on one field. It has all changed a few times. It will change a few more before it is done.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

Silent Kinesics (OOOO) Removes the gesture requirements for Kinesics.

It isn't actually a requirement to use gestures. It simply makes it easier when they are used, costing an extra Noema if the character doesn't use gestures. But I think the Merit is a good idea. Consider it in the queue.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

Tripwire (OO, requires Security O and some Commune Advancement)

I hadn't thought of using Crystals like that. Good idea. It opens up a whole lot more possible uses for Crystals. Thanks.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

Well every Genesis has -3 to one single trigger. But with Lucid Dreamer your weak Trigger drops to -1. That is an advantage no other Genesis has.

OK. Thanks for the point out. I'll try to balance it better or remove it entirely.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

I think Ego has the uneviable position of trying to measure two things at once. It's morality, hence the presence of killing on the list, but it's also how solid your sense of self is. I'm not suggesting two separate morality like traits, but that is the only thing I can think off.

Pretty much every Major Template has this problem in one way or another with their "Modified Morality Advantage". I find it easier to think of it like a character's Defense is the lesser of his Wits or Dexterity. A character's Defense is both Wits and Dexterity, but having a low one affects how much you can use of the other. So, a Psychic's Ego is both his morals and self image. Perhaps the Psychic thinks less of himself for doing bad things. Or by being moral he separates himself easier from the rest of the immoral world. Just a thought.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

(BTW speaking of Ego. I'd make the Cursed act on good impulses as much as bad ones. They'd still be dangerous and likely to kill but they'd be a lot more unpredictable and, well, it just seems a more honest portrayal to me.

I agree. The main reason they would act on "bad" impulses is that the people having them are trying to suppress them. I think it would be well within the concept to have one of the Cursed working in a soup kitchen and giving away all his money because other people want to do it but can't due to other needs or obligations.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

It might also be worth mentioning that some Cursed who have good ranks in Asylum Shielding are functional individuals, just trapped within their house until they develop a point of Ego.)

Very good. Perhaps there are even "prisons" to help the Cursed. True Asylums shielded from the outside world to help these poor souls recover.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

Neither of those sound too fitting for the example I really want. You're with someone you love, or fighting someone you hate, and the high emotions causes a Flare that leaves the two of you bound.

Now you either have to explain to your love that you're actually a psychic and have accidentally violated the sanctity of their mind in a rather extreme way. Or you and your enemy are stuck together and can't fight each other without the link sharing the pain and have to work together until you broke the link. Both sound like drama in the most awesome sense.

This is sounding like an excellent "Psychic Derangement". I've got a few worked out so far. My favorite uses the Multiple Personality Derangement and Personage Talent to create a physical transformation Jekyll and Hyde style.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

Well not mechanically, but in the fluff mention that the Gifted often seem to increase their powers at the neglect of mundane attributes. A mind reader has little need for charisma and few exercise their muscles when the brain does that job even better. Even mental attributes tend to be lacking, why study when you can just pluck answers out of other peoples heads.

Couch potato Telekinetics and Telepathic slobs. I like. However, my next change will be incorporating more usage of Attributes and Skills in Concentration rolls. I've been pretty much convinced that is the way to go.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

Evo_Shandor wrote:
But, they would be too powerful without a side effect (like quickly degrading Ego score or something similar).
How so?

Having no body means they can only die (or even be harmed) by supernatural means and some supernaturals don't even have the means to combat an "ethereal" being (almost impossible for most Vampires). Normal humans should always be some sort of threat to a supernatural creature, even if it is a very small threat.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

BTW needing to spend Nomina to keep themselves existing might be a more playable disadvantage.

That does sound more along the lines of cannon when dealing with spirit like beings.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

Evo_Shandor wrote:
Need to make it temporary or players would stick with playing Untethered only
Is that such a bad thing?

Only that they would be playing an almost entirely different game called "Untethered: The Post Psychic". I really like the idea of the Untethered, but mainly as a means to continue playing a favorite Psychic character after his "death" in order to find a new body (end of Scanners or X-Men 3 style).

TheKingsRaven wrote:

It probably wont be common, most normal indivudals wouldn't want to share their minds with a large group, you can't trust everyone in a large group, but there's bound to be a psychic cult or two which is essentially a huge Circle.

Sounds like a good description of the Pyramid Society or the Order of Abet. I've been thinking about more of a "cult" feel for those two Foundations.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

A Leviathan's mind is usually described as threefold: Beast, Man and God. Which sort of map to Id, Ego&Superego and Id.

Looks like I'll have to find time to look it over more carefully.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

BTW, I noticed Savorers don't have a quote. Here's something from Babylon 5 that might inspire you emotion-5.gif "Do you know what it's like when telepaths make love, Commander? You drop every defense, and it's all mirrors: reflecting each other's feelings deeper and deeper - until, somewhere along the line, your souls mix."

I remember and like it. Consider it done.

Also, Dreaminggod had an interesting idea about using Leviathans as the Psychic's major antagonist. I haven't put much thought into a major antagonist yet. I have always been of the mind that the best antagonists are just like the protagonists.
If I were to ask and get permission to use Leviathans as antagonists in my supplement, nearly all the rules for them would change to be 99% Psychic rules. One supplement should not have two separate rules systems for players to learn. That's just my opinion and I'm not currently planning on using Leviathans. They aren't my work and I don't want to mix too much in yet.

These past few days have yielded a bunch of comments on this forum as well as Shadownessence and my website. I think I've spent most of today just replying to posts.
Thanks for all the feedback.

BTW, TheKingsRaven will get a mention in my "special thanks to" section, unless you would prefer not.
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Evo_Shandor
Monday, February 14, 2011 3:45:00 PM
#126

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TheKingsRaven
Monday, February 14, 2011 4:07:23 PM
#127

Evo_Shandor wrote:
However, my next change will be incorporating more usage of Attributes and Skills in Concentration rolls. I've been pretty much convinced that is the way to go.
Shame, I liked the Kenning + Talent + Concentration layout. I felt that powers at the expense of the mundane added a little unique twist.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
This is sounding like an excellent "Psychic Derangement". I've got a few worked out so far. My favorite uses the Multiple Personality Derangement and Personage Talent to create a physical transformation Jekyll and Hyde style.
Sounds good. I'd add a little note that it basically only happens if the Derangement is caused by a Flair lowering your Ego. It just makes more sense if it's tied to a Flair.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
Normal humans should always be some sort of threat to a supernatural creature, even if it is a very small threat.
Yeah you have a point. I just quite liked the idea of a long dead psychic projecting from beyond the grave as a cold manipulator type villain.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
I have always been of the mind that the best antagonists are just like the protagonists.
I've always liked having one set of antagonists who are just like the protagonists and another who are foils to them. So in Leviathan humanity is the foil antagonist:
Leviathans fail to create any sort of lasting society, humans have entire civilisations.
Leviathans are constantly retreading old ground, never making progress. Humans are always doing something new.
Leviathans are the Monster. Their foes are the Hero. etc.

I think Leviathans could do pretty well as the foil antagonists for Psychics. From what I see the major problem for Psychics is that their psychic reception is too strong. The major problem for Leviathans is that their psychic projection is too strong. (Actually their Psychic reception isn't much better than mortals)

Psychics are constantly at risk of loosing their minds. Leviathans are constantly at risk of accidentally making other people lose their minds.

You could make something very interesting out of the parallels.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
If I were to ask and get permission to use Leviathans as antagonists in my supplement, nearly all the rules for them would change to be 99% Psychic rules.
Well I'm not the only developer for Leviathan, but I do seem to be the only one around at the moment. For what it's worth I like it when other people use my stuff.

Changing the rules makes sense, though the easier it is to translate a Leviathan between Psychic and Leviathan the happier I'd be. Quite a few design decisions in Leviathan work fine when Leviathans are PCs but wouldn't make much sense for using them as Antagonists in a Psychics game. For example Leviathans have the their own astral realm and no access to humanity's. The Rift is easily one of my favourite parts of the setting but in a Psychic game you'd want Leviathans to appear in the mindscape.

I'm happy to help you with Leviathans, ideas seem to be flowing easily. The first that springs to mind is to make the Gifted more vulnerable to Leviathans than average people but also uniquely advantaged in fighting back. Maybe they have to use the Immune Advancement to defend themselves when everyone else just uses Resolve + Composure. As for why Psychics are the best at fighting back. Well everyone is vulnerable to a two pronged attack on the physical and astral plane, and one prong is psychics only. Or if a Leviathan hides at the bottom of the sea and uses a cultist as a surrogate body (they can do that), well, sea water is no obstacle to astral travel.

It's a bit of a break from Leviathan itself, which assumes the greatest threat is regular humans. But I'm sure it can be made to work emotion-1.gif

Evo_Shandor wrote:
These past few days have yielded a bunch of comments on this forum as well as Shadownessence and my website.
Traffic. I envy you emotion-5.gif
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Evo_Shandor
Monday, February 14, 2011 4:31:55 PM
#128

TheKingsRaven wrote:
Evo_Shandor wrote:
However, my next change will be incorporating more usage of Attributes and Skills in Concentration rolls. I've been pretty much convinced that is the way to go.
Shame, I liked the Kenning + Talent + Concentration layout. I felt that powers at the expense of the mundane added a little unique twist.

I liked it that way at first, but had my mind changed. I could always change back, but I'll need to do lots of play testing before I change it again.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

Evo_Shandor wrote:
This is sounding like an excellent "Psychic Derangement". I've got a few worked out so far. My favorite uses the Multiple Personality Derangement and Personage Talent to create a physical transformation Jekyll and Hyde style.
Sounds good. I'd add a little note that it basically only happens if the Derangement is caused by a Flair lowering your Ego. It just makes more sense if it's tied to a Flair.

I was thinking that a Critical Failure on a Restraint roll should call for a Degeneration check. Sounds like a good reason to make the change.

TheKingsRaven wrote:

Psychics are constantly at risk of loosing their minds. Leviathans are constantly at risk of accidentally making other people lose their minds.

You could make something very interesting out of the parallels.

If I don't use Leviathans, I'm sure to do something similar to that.
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TheKingsRaven
Monday, February 14, 2011 5:16:37 PM
#129

Evo_Shandor wrote:
I liked it that way at first, but had my mind changed. I could always change back, but I'll need to do lots of play testing before I change it again.

How about Kenning + Concentration + Skill or Attribute? Changeling is precedent that you can have an Attribute or a Skill rather than just one.

Kenning represents your raw power, Concentration your psychic skill and then one mundane skill or attribute that compliments it.

I admit both Kenning & Talent's standing for raw ability did confuse me, Talents could remain as purely abstract categories in which you might have affinity. And the 2/1 split still has some elements of psychic couch potatoes.

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Evo_Shandor
Monday, February 14, 2011 5:37:11 PM
#130

TheKingsRaven wrote:

Awesome pic!
Made me laugh for a good 30 seconds. In fact, I'm still chuckling to myself.

Where did you find that? I think it needs to be in the PDF, if I can get permission from the owner.

Kenning + Concentration + Skill or Attribute sounds good, but
Talent + Concentration + Skill or Attribute sounds better to me.

I'm even considering dropping the default of 1 dot for each Talent and go back to just having a few Talent dots. Playtesting will provide data.
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TheKingsRaven
Monday, February 14, 2011 6:25:00 PM
#131

Evo_Shandor wrote:
Where did you find that? I think it needs to be in the PDF, if I can get permission from the owner.
I first found it on Moochava's Soup, but rather than just dig through the archive I just typed pizza levitating into google images. First result. Unfortunately I have no idea where the origonal came from.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
Kenning + Concentration + Skill or Attribute sounds good, but
Talent + Concentration + Skill or Attribute sounds better to me.

What's your reasoning? I'm finding it hard to see how the two raw power statistics fit together. Personally I think that the nWoD rarely makes your Power Stat worth increasing so making it part of every power roll would be a step in the right direction IMO.
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Evo_Shandor
Monday, February 14, 2011 7:42:44 PM
#132

TheKingsRaven wrote:
Evo_Shandor wrote:
Kenning + Concentration + Skill or Attribute sounds good, but
Talent + Concentration + Skill or Attribute sounds better to me.

What's your reasoning? I'm finding it hard to see how the two raw power statistics fit together. Personally I think that the nWoD rarely makes your Power Stat worth increasing so making it part of every power roll would be a step in the right direction IMO.

I like to think of Talents as the specific raw power of a Psychic.
While Kenning would be nice to have in every Concentration roll, it starts to feel a lot like Mage's Improvised Spellcasting and doesn't allow for the variations in a Psychic's core abilities.

This probably won't convince you, but here are my final arguments for Talents and using them in a Concentration's dice pool:
I consider Talents to be Psychic Attributes. While a normal human may have a high Dexterity, without the Crafts Skill he may not be able to paint worth a damn. For a Psychic, having high Commune rank doesn't mean he can read someone's mind, but if he ever learns to read minds (Read Concentration) he can be really good at the low level abilities.
Maybe that's why Talents exist. I want a Psychic to have the potential to be very good at something he barely knows how to do because he had all this raw power behind it.
Having 5 Talents with independent ratings also helps focus a player on specific groups of Concentrations instead of wandering all over the map. Since I think of a Psychic as usually having only 1 or 2 base abilities, this seemed the way to go. If a character has 3 dots in Commune and only 1 dot in each of the other Talents, the player is probably going to focus on purchasing Commune Concentrations. It kind of works like "in clan" and "out of clan" Vampire Disciplines. Sure there isn't a cost break to focus the players purchases in one area, but there is a mechanical benefit to staying in one field. Yes, I could just give the xp cost break to the grouped Concentrations, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. Or maybe it just didn't taste as good to me as the way I did it.
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Vree
Monday, February 14, 2011 11:34:58 PM
#133

Leviathan was out? emotion-3.gif Where do I get a copy?

Picking up from the Shadownessence thread:

Quote:
I like it, but I may have to use it only for a Personage Concentration. Personage is lacking in powers. About all I have for it is healing damage. I know there can be more (like autonomic control and stuff), but I think Health hacks should be at least related to Personage. But I'll definitely start thinking about it. Thanks.

I see where you're going with Personage, though I'm more inclined towards mentally assigning illusions to Telepathy and biokinesis to fine Telekinesis, as a whole (individual healing and or other options under other branches neccessarily need to fall under this).

Makes me wonder how you are planning to handle the whole Mediumship thing. The three first branches as telekinesis, telepathy and ESP are pretty much given. This being the WoD though, we get a fourth area of interest in ghosts/spirits and Twilight related phenomena.

Since it is never specifically spelled what the Shadow and Twilight -is- (one option from the Book of Spirits flat-out calls it the "Big Mind", people's collective consciousness), there is an option there to connect Personage with the idea of the "soul" and Scape creatures to other "astral" entities. (They may only be mental projections, not actual ghosts, but the unspoken rule of the nWoD is that all incorporeal consciousness use the same astral space - to exclude crossovers issues, naturally.)

In this case, a Mediumship tree would probably be a dual ability covering a Personage working similarly to astral projection, where the character can leave behind his body to act as a ghostly advisor to friends or spy on enemies, or to travel to other realms, while doing this the opposite way (withdrawing the consciousness rather than strenghtening or projecting it) would be what allows a psychic to "channel" ghosts.

Giving ghostly beings substance can also be covered; in fact, I think that Spirit mages have that ability already.

Oh! reminds me about the old story about psychic doppelgangers, too. For example:

-Astral projection: A ghostly body that can travel the Twilight, or deliver messages to far-away friends or spy on people. Travels a lot faster than the physical body would. Incorporeal.
-Bilocation: The projected body becomes physical, allowing the person to be in two places at once (even though the real body is probably sleeping or in trance).

Just musing. I could definitely imagine people doing fun things with their superior consciousness compared to smaller minds inside the Mindspace, and even creating a feedback to the body from it (though that one's kind of reminiscent of Mages' manipulating their Patterns).

Also, it was notably left out from Second Sight, but teleportation/phasing skills (manipulation of space, or matter on the atomic level?) could fit in as a +1 category as well.

(When I say "teleportation", I do not neccessarily mean teleportation of people (that'd be the grand "disappearing act"; beginner psychics probably have to think more on the lines of cups and balls and card tricks) but the alleged materialisation abilities of Uri Geller, stories of people finding themselves somewhere else in space or time and the such. (Mostly though, it's just a really popular "psychic" power in certain stories in general.)

By the by, have you cosidered using different dice pools for on-the-fly and extended actions? (Similar to Mage instant/extended spells and improvised/Rote casting, or Genius designing /Kitbashing.)

Mage, for example, used Attribute + Skill + Arcanum for one and Arcanum + Gnosis for the other.
Genius on the other hand only changes the Attribute requirement: Intelligence is needed for longer and Wits for hasted actions.

Psychics, for example, could differentiate between extended rolls that require preparations and entering a trance (in reality, harmonizing directly with the Mindspace) and activating concentrations on the fly. Naturally, there'd be much more chance that something goes wrong in the latter case.

Now, I don't think these things neccessarily need separate rolls, but definitely something to consider for one who's looking for more options.

Anyway, some stuff on Psi-nulls because I'm all fired up lately. >_>;

Psi-null traits:

Every psi-null possesses a rating that adds to the difficulty of
activating psychic abilities in their presence. (As per the original rules this may be derived from Resolve+Composure; or perhaps they possess a single 1 to 10 stat similar to psychics' Kenning.)
For every dot of their rating, the effective range of their influence also increases by ten fet.
The psi-null can never switch off this effect, or any other of their abilities.

Additional abilities:

A psi-null does not use his abilites consciously, and their entire power revolves around suppressing whatever kind of psychic potential they may have.
As such, they do not possess Concetrations. Instead, every psi-null
possesses five natural abilities that roughly mirror to the five psychic Talents. A psi-null can purchase these the same way as a psychic would be buying Talents. Each of them give
the psi-null the ability to defend against a particular psychic ability. They extend from 1 to 5 dots; each one adds one die.

- Nullify: As with psychics, the act of touching a target amplifies a power. A psi-null can apply this power to destroy any psychic effect they come in physical contact with. Eg. a psi-null can dissipate a phantasmal Chimera by touching it. This typically requires a roll (eg. psi-null's power vs. psychic's Kenning).

The psi-null can only deactivate efects that are being operated by psychic force: an object thrown at him but moving due to its own momentum is not affected, but a melee weapon moved around by the psychic is.

The psi-null can apply the same ability to temporarily rob psychics of
their power. A psi-null who has successfully performed a Brawl attack
against a psychic instantly deactivates all abilities he had in progress, and robs him from being able to activate any new ability in the same turn.

If he has him in a grapple (even if only by so much as grabbing onto
her arm), it impossible for her to resort to any psychic activity (even collecting Noema) until she can free herself.

The ultimate application of this power is one that directly targets
a psychic's mind. A psi-null who successfully delivers a Brawl
attack to a psychic's head (-3 dice) can null their mental connection to the Mindspace. The results of this are catastrophic: the shock of suddenly getting cut off from the
Mindspace as well as the energies that are unable to leave the
psychic's mind deliver a trauma that can completely shuts down the
psychic's brain. A Stamina roll is made. If unsuccessful, the psychic
instantly loses consciousness, and will be unable to use any psychic
abilities for a number of hours equal to the psi-null's power level.
The number of turns the psychic spends unconscious is equal to their own Kenning rating.

- Static: Rather than just deactivating powers that are activated in
his presence, the psi-null can protect against prying eyes whose user
has activated his Awareness several miles away.
The PSI-null gains his power rating as defense against being located
or spied on through ESP. In addition, he shields everyone who is
inside his active range of influence. Most psychic or anti-psychic
organizations always have someone with this talent present on important
meetings.

A "blind spot" created this way is revealed to an ESPer only if he
knows where it is and is trying to look directly at it. Performing a
general scan or fishing for premotions simply turns up nothing.
This ability does not affect Twilight creatures or psychics
projecting themselves in astral form.

- Mental void: The Psi-null's mind is like a black spot for all
telepaths. The Psi-null automatically gains defense equal to dots in
this trait against mind-reading or -altering abilities. The psi-null's
mind also becomes invisible from within the mindspace.
This is also the best way to identify a psi-null in a crowd, as a
telepath can usually pin-point the person whose mind he can't read, if she can perform a mental surface scan. Of course, if the character is already within
the psi-null's aura, then using such an ability may be impossible. The
best chance is if the character notices the interference before she is too near to the psi-null. (In a story, the Storyteller may only allow for one or two actions that the telepath can use to try to decide who to "test" in a group of people before the full effectmakes their use impossible.)

(other abilities are to be added depending on psychic Talents)

[Also, here's some story fluff (very optional that I'm not sure about myself) simply because I like the concept of psi-nulls as "average Joes":]

Becoming a psi-null:

One theory is that many psi-nulls were budding physics themselves who failed to realize their Gift and ended up repressing it. Few psychics have the luxury of being aided by another psychic or at
least by a person with some understanding of the Occult. Some may have been people who clearly created psychic phenomena, but lacked guidance to understand how to control it. Others couldn't bring themselves to believe and ended up in therapy, and over time even convinced themselves until they never had anything unusual about themselves. Some never even noticed, and ignored the mental call of the Mindscape as one would erase a crazy or nonsensical feeling or thought.

Perhaps this is a good thing. Many young psychics are overhelmed by
the invasiveness of the Mindspace, and get broken down before they can come
into their true power. Repressing the Gift can be seen as the mind's
natural defense mechanism that protects the person from becoming one
of the Cursed.

Unfortunately, Psychic talent is irrevocably tied to the way one's
personality and thinking works, so it's unlikely when the process can be reversed; a child or preadolescent whose personality is still malleable may make the turn, but bringing the repressed
Gift to the surface in adults may require years of therapy, may never be successful, and a former psi-null may well never be able to learn psychic gifts again with the same ease as a natural
psychic.

Psychic effects & psychology:

As with most untrained psychics, psi-nulls seem to occassionally subconsciously activate phenomena of their own. But while a psychic's power causes disturbance, the psi-null's projects only stillness. The Mindspace, among other things, the sum of all human thought and emotion, and when it becomes thinner, if subtly, but it can be noticed. The result is usually calming, making it impossible to feel any strong emotion, but also true genius or passion. The people in the psi-null's neighborhood may start arguing, then suddenly stop as if all of their emotion and unspoken thoughts have disappeared. Even these nuances though are usually very minor and unnoticable, especially because the psi-null himself has no idea when his power flare-ups are activate or not. The one most affected is, in fact, the psi-null himself. The process is not thoroughly understood, but some aspects of the Mindspace appear to be neccessary to be present even in a regular mortal's life. It is hard to say how their lack manifests. Perhaps the character is simply an unlucky Joe. Perhaps he is a massive skeptic. Mostly, they are just boring.

If there is an unifying trait among psi-nulls, it is apparently the deep held conviction that they are normal. Not all psi-nulls are antagonistics towards psychic phenomena, and some may even admire or envy psychics. But they are psychologically incapable of imagining tthemselves being the same.

Organizations:

Psi-nulls usually remain unnoticed. In a world where even searching for people with real psychic ability
is a difficult task, finding a person who can only be identified when near them is a near-impossible task.
Most of them are usually blissfully
unaware of what they are until someone stumbles on them and decides to
use them as a test subject or a thrump card against another psychic.

Foundations sometimes accept psi-nulls among their ranks, or at least realize their existence as people in need of their guidance or as dangerous enemies. They are usually unable to provide any help for them with their abilities as they would with other psychics; psi-nulls are sufficiently rare that no training school for them
exists (their abilities are probably even less understood than
psychics'emotion-5.gif. A psi-null who joins a Foundation is likely forced to become autodidactic.

(This does not stop many organizations as even an untrained psi-null can be a huge advantage, and are in high demand.)

Worse off are those who end up in the hands of anti-esper
organization, who quickly indoctrinate them with their ideology, where
psychics are a dangerous
and psi-nulls the chosen protectors of humanity with a gift granted to
them to destroy them. (The only known purely psi-null group consists of such indicviduals, and even though they represent less than five percent of the known psi-null population, they still give them a bit of a bad rep.)

-Keepers:- may consider it their duty to find and "free" psi-null minds.
Would seek to rehabilitate a psi-null and make them realize their
powers. They do this partially because of their perceived mission, and
part out of self-defense - psi-nulls are about the greatest weapon
their enemies can use against this organization.
(Of course, consider the problems that psychics have that psi-nulls do not, and that ex-psi-nulls often have a lot harder time learning and contolling their abilities, and this ideology suddenly looks a lot less benevolent…)
-Unit 700:- Psi-nulls typically receive the same military training that
physics do,and are treated as a type of unit just specializing in a
certain type of psychics, the same as the group normally has agents
specialized in a specific task and Talent. Most of them are used on
special missions.
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Evo_Shandor on 2/15/2011

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Vree
Tuesday, February 15, 2011 12:00:23 AM
#134

TheKingsRaven wrote:
Evo_Shandor wrote:
I have always been of the mind that the best antagonists are just like the protagonists.
I've always liked having one set of antagonists who are just like the protagonists and another who are foils to them.

I kind of like the main splats + Psi-nulls + Cursed set-up.

(I also like to think of psi-nulls as potential player character material.emotion-4.gif )

Evo_Shandor wrote:
TheKingsRaven wrote:
I'm not too sure the idea of spending Noema as Willpower is a good one.

I'm part way with you here. I introduced spending Noema as Willpower early on, because I thought of Noema as "enhanced" Willpower. It's a Psychic thing. They use their Will to perform feats. I may remove this later, but before I do, I will need more ideas on how to spend and reclaim Noema.

I love the general idea, because I see "Second Sight" as a potential "minor template", a sort of wolf-blooded or ghoul to the Psychic's werewolf/vampire (effectively 0-Kenning people who represent the psychic potential in every human). Of course since they are not connected to the Mindspace like "real" physics they can only rely on their own (small) Willpower pool.

However, I agree that this seems to create an unbalancing boost to the Noema pool. The best way would be allow the Willpower to Noema conversion, but make Willpower have some other use for the psychic (eg. extending the duration of their powers) that they cannot do with Noema. Or let them defend against psychic backlash with Willpower. Something like this can make Willpower precious enought that they don't waste it on mere Noema points.
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TheKingsRaven
Tuesday, February 15, 2011 3:54:22 AM
#135

Vree wrote:
Leviathan was out? emotion-3.gif Where do I get a copy?
Leviathan has been in a state of almost done for simply ages now. You can read it at the wiki. The big things left to do is the city apendix, the Rift and possibly a section on the mundane ocean. It's definitely fully playable as is.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
I like to think of Talents as the specific raw power of a Psychic.
So, um, what's Kenning then?

Evo_Shandor wrote:
Having 5 Talents with independent ratings also helps focus a player on specific groups of Concentrations instead of wandering all over the map.
It might be worth adding an extra incentive or two, nWoD exp rules tend to encourage dabbling.
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TheKingsRaven
Tuesday, February 15, 2011 6:24:51 AM
#136

The thing that actually got me interested in this project was the idea that a Circle is formed by creating a mind link between all members and this would create a Gesault entity that functions like a Werewolf's Totem. So I whipped up some rough rules.

These are pretty experimental. Pack Totems are powered by the player's exp, but I really wanted a Gesault's strength to dervive from the charachter sheets of it's component members, even getting weaker at times. So if it sucks that's my excuse emotion-5.gif

Gestalts

When psychics link minds by forming a true Circle a measure of their power forms a unified mind, a psychic Gesalt.

Gestalt Traits:

Gestalts start with one dot in all Attributes, one dot in all Talents. And no dots in skills or Kenning.

Gestalts start with zero in Ego however they have an increased effective Ego: +1 for every member of the Circle up to the highest Ego in the Circle.

Gestalts have their own exp, there are three ways for a Gestalt to gain exp:

Increases in Kenning: Gesaults get free exp based on the Kenning of the circle's members. The first dot of Kenning provides one exp, the second dot provides two exp, and so on. One point of exp per Kenning. Circle members with an Ego of eight or more do not contribute to a Gesault.

Loss of Ego. The less Ego a member of a Circle has the harder they find it to separate their mind from that of their friends in the Circle, this translates to stronger a Gesault. This is calculated by multiplying the amount of exp from Kenning by 8 – Ego
Example: Xavier has a Kenning of 3 and an Ego of 7, therefore he provides 3 exp to his Circle's Gesalt. If Xavier was to lose a dot of Ego this would increase to 6 exp.

A Gesault with a Kenning of 1 or more can gain exp like a character.

Gesalts can spend exp on Attributes, Skills, Kenning, Ego, Talents, Concentrations and Advancements like a psychic. However the maximum a Gesault is limited by it's components. A Gesault cannot exceed the highest rank among Circle members, +1 for every additional Circle member with at least one dot in that trait or the usual limitations based on Kenning.
[i]Example: Three scientists discover a new formula that grants psychic powers which they eagerly use on themselves. Forming a Circle they create a Gesault. The most skilled scientist has 4 dots in Science and naturally the other two both have dots in Science. Therefore the Gesault cannot exceed 6 dots in science or it's Kenning. Whichever is lower.

Gesaults can lose exp if a member dies or leaves the Circle. This usually forces them to lose dots and calls for a Lapse of Ego at 2.

Gesaults and Kenning

A Gesault can increase in Kenning by spending experience points Kenning one is always the first thing a Gesault buys. When a Gesalult gets it's first dot of Kenning it also gets a free dot of Ego and 5/4/3 dots of skills as it becomes a somewhat unique being.

Like many things a Gesault can be stronger than the sum of it's parts but a Gesault that's too strong is actively dangerous to Circle members. If a Gesalts Kenning ever exceeds a member's Ego that member has one Ego lapse per week. This Lapse has a unique dicepool: Resolve + Ego – the Gesault's Kenning. The Gesault itself can help using the Teamwork action rules, the Gesault rolls Resolve + Ego – Kenning.

If a Gesault gets too powerful many Circle members will do the sensible thing and attempt to leave the linked Circle. Not all Gesalts do but some try to force a member to stay. They can contest an attempt to leave using some sort of Communion vs Personage roll. This is risky because once the Gesault goes against one member it may panic the others, if even a single member sucessfully leaves this can significantly weaken the Gesalt allowing others to escape.

However if a Psychic is subsumed into the Gesault things can hit a critical mass, each psychic's breakdown of Ego strengthens the Gesault leaving more members of the Circle vulnerable until only one being with several bodies remains. Some Circles are formed with this as a express goal out of a desperate desire for emotional intimacy or unique philosophical or religious views.

Gesault and Death

A Gesault can be defeated by filling it's health track like any untethered. This causes Feedback to every member of the circle. For the following days each member will lose one Nomena a day. Each Nomena restores a point of health and when the last box is cleared the Gesault reappears.

A more permanent way to destroy a Gesault is to split the Circle. When the Circle breaks up first remove all the exp that individual members contributed and respend the Gesaults own personal exp as desired. Then treat the Gesault as though they were a Psyhic who just died to see if they become an untethered.

Gesaults that have subsumed their Circle do not lose exp when a body is destroyed and check to see if they become untethered when their last body is lost as normal.
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Evo_Shandor on 2/15/2011

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Evo_Shandor
Tuesday, February 15, 2011 10:04:38 AM
#137

Vree wrote:

Makes me wonder how you are planning to handle the whole Mediumship thing. The three first branches as telekinesis, telepathy and ESP are pretty much given. This being the WoD though, we get a fourth area of interest in ghosts/spirits and Twilight related phenomena.

I figured Mediums would mainly come from Commune. Mind to mind communications.
Awareness Concentrations would allow for the character to see or feel these spirits.
Maybe even a Personage Concentration or Advancement to allow a spirit/ghost to take over.

Vree wrote:

Oh! reminds me about the old story about psychic doppelgangers, too. For example:

-Astral projection: A ghostly body that can travel the Twilight, or deliver messages to far-away friends or spy on people. Travels a lot faster than the physical body would. Incorporeal.
-Bilocation: The projected body becomes physical, allowing the person to be in two places at once (even though the real body is probably sleeping or in trance).

These may be good Personage Concentrations. Although, I could also see bilocation working as a combination of remote viewing and a figment, at least in appearance.

Vree wrote:

Also, it was notably left out from Second Sight, but teleportation/phasing skills (manipulation of space, or matter on the atomic level?) could fit in as a +1 category as well.

Yeah. I haven't figured that out completely yet. Both feel like Personage concentrations. I had a Scape Concentration (Fade) that allowed for "turning twilight", but I'm not so sure that's were it belongs any more. Teleportation may be at the high end of a Personage Concentration.

Vree wrote:

By the by, have you cosidered using different dice pools for on-the-fly and extended actions? (Similar to Mage instant/extended spells and improvised/Rote casting, or Genius designing /Kitbashing.)

I have and I am 99% against it for one reason only: It would be too much like Mage. I already have a whole bunch of similarity and many "major psychic template opponents" are opposed because they say Mage already covers psychics.
However, I do like the idea of making stuff up on the fly (I love playing Mage). I think, if I have anything like that, it will be during Flares and not controllable by the player.
I don't plan on confining Psychics to only performing the abilities in the book either. Special Advancements can be created and learned to create new effects.
Just had a random thought… a few of the major templates have a unique xp available to them. If Psychics had one that built up until they had enough to buy some new power they made up on the spot, then they kind of have the on-the-fly ability (a fraction of it anyway). I'll have to think of that some more.

Vree wrote:

Anyway, some stuff on Psi-nulls because I'm all fired up lately. >_>;

Awesome work on Psi-nulls.
You made me think about them in a whole new way.

Vree wrote:

(I also like to think of psi-nulls as potential player character material.emotion-4.gif )

Definitely playable, but not very special if your not going up against Psychics every day. Almost not special when you are going up against Psychics. Psychic vs. Psi-null usually just looks like two guys fighting. No special effects. Just fists flying at faces.
At least that's the way I see it for now.

TheKingsRaven wrote:
I'm not too sure the idea of spending Noema as Willpower is a good one.

You know, I'm convinced. I've already got Reinforcements that boost Attributes by spending Noema, it doesn't need to work like Willpower.

TheKingsRaven wrote:
Evo_Shandor wrote:
I like to think of Talents as the specific raw power of a Psychic.
So, um, what's Kenning then?

Kenning is… well, more of the Psychics connection to the Mindscape. Sure, it can be interpreted as power level, and is in a way.
And my final, final note on Talents: They make my Psychic game a little different than the others. Every game needs a little unique feel and that is one of the things I think Talents bring to the table.

TheKingsRaven wrote:
Evo_Shandor wrote:
Having 5 Talents with independent ratings also helps focus a player on specific groups of Concentrations instead of wandering all over the map.
It might be worth adding an extra incentive or two, nWoD exp rules tend to encourage dabbling.

I've been considering giving an xp break on "Natural Concentrations" and I haven't thrown the idea out.

TheKingsRaven wrote:
The thing that actually got me interested in this project was the idea that a Circle is formed by creating a mind link between all members and this would create a Gesault entity that functions like a Werewolf's Totem. So I whipped up some rough rules.

Interesting idea. Two problems I see with it though.
1) Complicated. It looks like more work than making up a new character, plus it needs updated if the Circle changes (gets a new member or looses an old one). Either its stats shouldn't change that easily, or its stats should be extremely simple.
2) What does it do? Besides taking over members. Its cool to have created some astral being out of the Circles consciousness/unconsciousness, but it sounds like it will only be a detriment to the Circle. Unless that was the plan. If it is a creature that goes around helping the Circle, it may be over powered. I'm not completely up to speed on the rules for a Totem, but the Gestalt seems more powerful.
However, doesn't the Werewolf Totem come from a (shared) Merit? What if the Gestalt was also a Merit instead of an automatic result of forming a Circle. Sure you need a Circle, but without the Merit the Gestalt never forms.
I still don't know much about Totems. I haven't played much Werewolf, and when I did, Totems weren't a big part of it (usually just the mechanical bonuses and a story hook now and then).
So, I don't know how useful Gestalts would be in the game. I like the idea, but I don't know the best way to implement it.
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TheKingsRaven
Tuesday, February 15, 2011 11:18:12 AM
#138

Evo_Shandor wrote:
I figured Mediums would mainly come from Commune. Mind to mind communications.
Awareness Concentrations would allow for the character to see or feel these spirits.
Maybe even a Personage Concentration or Advancement to allow a spirit/ghost to take over.

Can I make a suggestion. When making concentrations try to think about your psychic archtypes. "Telepath" "Fortune Teller" "Telekenetic", "has the Second Sight" etc. And for all of them try to limit the amount of different Talents being used.

So for "I see ghost" Mediums you could probobly cut that down to too: Awareness to see, hear and as a side effect communicate with ghosts or whatever. That cuts them down to too, and the Personage is for a pretty necihe side of the Archtype. Personally I'm not sure weather letting a Spirit in would be Personate or Commune but either way you could say it requries Awareness since you can't do it without seeing the ghost. It's now clear that if you want to play the hears ghost archtype of psychic that Awareness is the Talent for you. It also helps if you ever revisit the Natural Talents and want to make sure the best fitting Course for each archtype favours the correct ability.

E.G. Expand Listers from Commune to Commune or Awareness. (I wouldn't call them Charlatans if they actually have the Sight)

Evo_Shandor wrote:
1) Complicated. It looks like more work than making up a new character, plus it needs updated if the Circle changes (gets a new member or looses an old one). Either its stats shouldn't change that easily, or its stats should be extremely simple.
I was imagining that it's stats would be very simple in practice if not limited to that. I imagined that few would ever really buy anything except Kenning, Talents, Concentrations and Advantages + maybe one or two favoured attributes that are useful for it's Concentrations. (BTW is there an unskilled penalty for Concentrations?)

The real reason I let have the full range of stats is so you can simulate them growing from just a tangle of psychic energy into a thinking being with it's own Ego.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
2) What does it do? Besides taking over members. Its cool to have created some astral being out of the Circles consciousness/unconsciousness, but it sounds like it will only be a detriment to the Circle. Unless that was the plan.

The plan was to make it a double edged sword. It is, like you say, a creature that goes around helping the Circle. I don't think it's likely to be overpowered though. It has to buy everything in exp and unless you get a 20 member Circle it's exp will be very limited.

Lets say it reaches Kenning 3. Thats 48 exp. If you had four members they would each need to have Kenning 3 and ego 4 each. And that would put it at all attributes at 1, all skills at 0, no talents (or is it still 1 dot in each for everyone).

Actually it might need a drastic increase in power just to make it useful for anything.

Here's a possibility. And it's simple too. A Gesalt can only spend exp on Kenning or Ego, and every dot of Kenning gets it a free dot of Talent and 2/3 dots of concentrations. That way if it looses exp you have predefined "save points" to revert back to. Generally speaking a Gesalt that buys dots in Ego will start asserting independence of the characters but is not nessacarally hostile. It might just want to be treated as an equal.

A Gesalt that buys Kenning is closer to lump of raw psychic power and tends to be obedient (that's if the Circle generally work together) but is also more likely to start subsuming members.

As for increasing the power, it could be as simple as say. 3 exp per dot of Kenning… Playtesting or a big spreadsheet may be required.

Evo_Shandor wrote:
However, doesn't the Werewolf Totem come from a (shared) Merit? What if the Gestalt was also a Merit instead of an automatic result of forming a Circle. Sure you need a Circle, but without the Merit the Gestalt never forms.
It might work if you just want the Gestalt to be your healper buddy, but if you do it that way than OOC players can always be careful about how powerful they make it. I really like the risk of it growing out of control.

Call the Merit version a last resort. And if you do it that way IMO players will expect to get some benifits to their charachter from it so we'd have to think of something.
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Evo_Shandor
Tuesday, February 15, 2011 12:45:47 PM
#139

TheKingsRaven wrote:
Can I make a suggestion. When making concentrations try to think about your psychic archtypes. "Telepath" "Fortune Teller" "Telekenetic", "has the Second Sight" etc. And for all of them try to limit the amount of different Talents being used.

That is a good suggestion. I just didn't want to have to group them together the same way Second Sight Psychics are grouped. I know they were grouped that way for a reason, but everything doesn't have to line up perfectly with exisiting psychic rules. However, you make good points and I see Mediums using Awareness to see and hear spirits instead of using Commune. Although, it may require Commune to talk to spirit-spirits. Most of them don't speak human languages.
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TheKingsRaven
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 5:34:55 AM
#140

Memetic Hazard (Extreme) – Obsessive Compulsion – (Commune)

Not all Psychics who develop obsessive traits are channelling a meme, but they are more susceptible to them and when a psychic carries a meme it tends to spread fast.

Whenever the psychic makes a Commune link to another psychic Roll Kenning + Commune vs Kenning + Immune. On a Success the meme embeds itself into the other psychics consciousness for 10 – Ego days. This causes the Fixation derangement but will not upgrade an existing Fixation into obsessive compulsion. After the time is up their natural personality rejects the meme or if incliend to, accepts it but also assimilates it making the meme harmless. It also makes the Psychic an infectious vector using the rules above. Psychics who already have Obsessive Compulsion will gain new symptoms in line with the meme.

No psychic can have more than one meme, if a psychic transmits a meme to another psychic it destroys any existing meme. If both are successfully transmitted the one with more successes is dominant in both minds.

A psychic can transmit a meme into a norm. Roll Kenning + Commune vs Resolve + Composure. Mortals retain memes for 10 – Willpower days. Norms cannot truly transmit a meme, they can talk about it to each other but this vector is not powerful enough to cause derangements. A Psychic who uses Commune on a norm who has a meme can catch it. This works like the catching meme from another psychic but the roll to resist is Resolve + Composure + Immune.

Generally a meme that is not causing a derangement is not strong enough to be dangerous, even if a psychic communes the meme will be assimilated as harmlessly as any other idea. However a Psychic who's mind is degenerating to an ego lapse may upgrade a harmless meme into a dangerous one.

Though dangerous in the local area, because psychics are required for a meme to truly spread truly dangerous wildfire ideas remain the domain of worried psychic researches and science fiction authors.
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Evo_Shandor
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 10:20:09 AM
#141

TheKingsRaven wrote:
Memetic Hazard (Extreme) – Obsessive Compulsion – (Commune)

Cool. I will have to incorporate this into the Derangement section.
Psychics with Derangement are scary. emotion-2.gif

I've noticed I've been posting more than I've been writing in the supplement, but posting helps get the juices flowing.

I've got a little bit of a Medium Concentration done, but need some help on coming up with the rest. All I really need are some more ideas to go with.

Here is the little of what I currently have:

Mediumship
Mediums communicate with the dead, angels, demons or other spirits. They are Psychics who perceive these ethereal beings, most of the time they are simply feelings, but sometimes looking as real as a person standing next to them.

• Psychograpy
These Mediums are able to communicate with a ghost or spirit through a technique using pen and paper commonly called “Automatic Writing”. The Psychic simply clears his mind, asks his questions and begins writing, anything. Mediums of this level do not sense the ghost or spirit consciously. The ghost or spirit responds with the answers directly into the Psychic’s unconsciousness resulting in messages from beyond being written down on paper.
Cost: 1 Noema
Dice Pool: Awareness + Mediumship + Empathy - Resistance of Spirit
Action: Extended (1 minute per roll)
Duration: A number of Questions based on Successes
Each success yields one answer from the spirit or ghost. Answers are short and can be confusing for more complex questions. There is no guarantee that the answers are truthful, just that they will be answered.

•• Whispers
The Psychic can hear and speak with the spirits directly. Conversations are now possible and many ghosts have a lot to say.
Cost: 1 Noema
Dice Pool: Awareness + Mediumship + Composure
Action: Instant
Duration: Focus
Rules?

••• Apparitions
Not only can the Psychic converse with the spirits as per “Whispers”, but he can now see them. While seeing who (or what) you are talking to is nice, most Mediums use this ability to locate, identify or to simply avoid dangerous spirits.
Cost: 1 Noema
Dice Pool: Awareness + Mediumship + Investigation
Action: Instant
Duration: Focus
Rules?

•••• ?
••••• ?
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TheKingsRaven
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 1:02:41 PM
#142

So what was the reasoning behind moving to a 1-5 layout? I'm curious. Not really against it, there are some drawbacks but nothing I havn't seen in every WoD game so far.

How about

••••
The Psychic can now read a spirit. If it's a Spirit they get basic knowledge of it's nature, if it's a ghost they get basic knowladge of who they were and what binds them to the living plane.

•••••
The Psychic can form a temporary merge with a willing spirit. The spirit can spend one essence to make a Teamwork roll on any action and the Psychic can spend one Nomina to give 1 Essence up to their maximum limit per turn. The spirit is free to help or not help as it wishes by the psychic can bribe, plead or threaten to the best of her ability.

Also perhaps a Scape advancement that lets the Psychic synchronise an illusion so everyone can talk to the spirit with Mediumship 2, and see it at Mediumship 3.
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Evo_Shandor
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 2:55:01 PM
#143

TheKingsRaven wrote:
So what was the reasoning behind moving to a 1-5 layout? I'm curious. Not really against it, there are some drawbacks but nothing I havn't seen in every WoD game so far.

A few reasons.
1) Laziness/uncomplicated. Not lazy for coming up with a different way of organizing them (I had what I thought was a good one already), but for character sheet organization. I had a base Concentration that had many specific Advancements, but it is simpler to simply know how many dots a character has (with default powers for those levels) than to both know the dots and the specific Advancements that could be just about anything.
2) Advancing in a Concentration needed to have more of a benefit than just more dice on the roll. Talents barely do more than that now and I didn't want Concentrations to be the same way.
3) Power levels of the "specific Advancements" were difficult to balance in a way that anyone could start with any of them (which is the way I had wanted). Perhaps simply changing the Noema cost would have been the way to do it.

I may still go back to my old way, but organizing them in 5 dot tiered groups can give me a point to transfer them from or leave as is. And having 5 dot versions gives me at least 4 specific Advancements to fall back on if I change back.

I would so like to go back to the old way with a base power Concentration and Advancements. Maybe once I get enough done, I can see an uncomplicated way of doing it the way I like.

TheKingsRaven wrote:
••••
The Psychic can now read a spirit.

•••••
The Psychic can form a temporary merge with a willing spirit.

Also perhaps a Scape advancement that lets the Psychic synchronise an illusion so everyone can talk to the spirit with Mediumship 2, and see it at Mediumship 3.

I like the first 2, but I have been trying (probably unsuccessfully) to not step on the toes of another Concentration with an Advancement. For example, the Proximity Advancement doesn't allow the Psychic to actually see around corners, just to extend a Concentration (like Telekinesis) out of his immediate line of sight. Now that I've said that, I may have to take a second look at the Advancements I have already created.
I said that because it sounded like you were meaning an Advancement that creates an illusion. Since there is a Concentration dedicated to doing illusions, it seemed to be stepping on it's toes. Of course, I could be completely over thinking it. I do that a lot.

Here is how I would adapt your Advancement idea.
I've been thinking of a new Advancement (Scape) that would allow the Psychic to combine the Concentration with another and only have one Concentration roll. It sounds a lot like Combined Spells in Mage (that may make me change my mind). However, it is different. A player can only "combine" other Concentrations with the Concentration that has the Advancement.
Therefore, having Mediumship with the Combine Concentration means the Psychic can use the Figment Concentration to show illusions of the ghost he is seeing. He could also use the Telepathy Concentration to transfer what he is hearing directly to his Circle only. Or some other combination.

This "Combine" Advancement may also be the answer to the on-the-fly-effect desires of some players.
If it turns out to be too powerful, I could always make the Advancement only work between 2 pre-chosen Concentrations.

Related note:
In case it wasn't realized, I've been considering Scape as the "Metamagic" Talent as well as the perception manipulation Talent. Since that it is the one that actually manipulates the Mindscape directly, it can also manipulate Psychic powers directly. I don't know if this gives too much power to that Talent or not. If so, the Figment and Fade Concentrations should be easy enough to change into Commune Concentrations, but I prefer them in Scape for now.

Damn. Now that I've read over what I wrote, I've almost convinced myself that a specific Advancement for Mediumship that uses Scape to create an illusion of the ghost would be fine. More likely is a Scape Advancement that simply forces the ghost's image be seen instead of being invisible.
I hate it when I over think things. Now I have like 5 ways to do that one thing and no idea which way is the best. Arg!
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TheKingsRaven
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 7:07:43 PM
#144

Evo_Shandor wrote:
I've almost convinced myself that a specific Advancement for Mediumship that uses Scape to create an illusion of the ghost would be fine. More likely is a Scape Advancement that simply forces the ghost's image be seen instead of being invisible.
Nudges Evo into doing what I suggest emotion-5.gif

There's a reason I didn't want to force a ghost to be seen. Ghosts are by default invisible and have to work to be visible, not the other way around. Using Scape justified the Psychic's power creating "visibility".

I'm not too keen on the idea of a generic Combine Advancement, but I'd have to see it in practice.
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Evo_Shandor
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 7:22:58 PM
#145

TheKingsRaven wrote:
I'm not too keen on the idea of a generic Combine Advancement, but I'd have to see it in practice.

The Combine Advancement does sound like it may not work.
I'll put it on the back burner for now. Let it simmer a bit. Might find a use for it later.
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Vree
Thursday, February 17, 2011 12:57:18 AM
#146

If you don't mind me on board as a contributor, I'd love to keep cooking up more material for this.

I need to slow down so that I do not neglect my other duties xD I'll probably post something once or twice a week, and try to make those ones count. I wish I could comment of everything said above, but I'll have to limit it to the top three:

I love the general idea of the Gestalt; my most important suggestion here is to make it less like a "spirit buddy", and more of a real hive mind .

Game mechanics-wise, this will make it a little less like a Werewolf Totem and a bit closer to Hunter group Tactics. But there is an important difference: hunter tactics depend on the preparation time the group used to learn them and practice them together. A hive-mind needs no such thing. Instead, its success depends on the harmonization of its members.

Sample Gestalt rules:

When people join a Circle, there are likely to be many dissonant voices. The gift of telepathy aside, psychics really have no more capability of working together than any other human would.
Gestalt is for those who want to get past these limitations and create something more advanced.

Simply put, a Gestalt is a collective consciousness made up from the psychics' own minds. We make haste to give assurance that the members of a Gestalt are perfectly capable of acting on their own, even when directly opposing the rest of the group. Gestalt is a voluntary union that its members can or can not evoke depending on whether it seems right or not for the situation.

Why'd anyone want to give up their individuality so that they can become a part of some bizarre super-overmind? Because a Gestalt can make complicated decisions which take into account every bit of knowledge from every person who had participated in making it, so the resulting decision not only takes into account every angle, but also uses those very minds to oversee the decision-making process so hopefully the result can be something that the people have really made together. A Gestalt can come into conflict with itself just like a human mind, but over time it can learn how to resolve such issues more quickly and what decision-making process works best, and it does it without the risk that a person with a good degree of persuasion can tilt things unjustly in his own favor.

Because the Gestalt is thinking as a single entity, its members are also able to act in perfect unision. A human group may need a lot of time to learn group tactics or to get accustomed to each other's habits, but the Gestalt can automatically and compare how it can ut

Information spreads easily within the Gestalt. Anything known by any member can be sent to another at a moment's notice. Not only, but it saves the trouble of each member having to re-learn everything individually, which in turn frees up more thinking space that the Gestalt can assign to tasks.

Finally, the better creating a super-intelligence more powerful than any of them could be individually. Without each

Considerations:

Not every character wants to be part of a Gestalt. Don't forget that psychics primarily protect their Ego, their sense of individuality. Allowing someone else to access their most hidden thoughts seems to be going directly against that principle. The benefits of Gestalt are numerous, but the repercussions can be severe. The best Gestalts are formed among individuals who are able to completely trust each other. Some psychics simply never find -anyone- they could trust, or their Circle may value their independency and ability to work on their own over the potential benefits of such a decision.

A note on telepathic abilities and Gestalt:

Note that many of the basic options offered by the Gestalt, in one form or another, are avaliable to people who only share a psychic link. The main difference is that for people in a Gestalt, such an act is reflexive; there is no communication time or activation cost. They are simply collaterals of that state of being.

The following abilities may be use to those who want to join in on the mind-sharing fun without the risks:

- Telepathy: A character can talk to another in his mind, as if they were talking through radio.
Psychic link: Two characters who share it can both talk through telepathy and allow each other to read the other's surface thoughts. (For example, concentrating hard on the right answers during a test so that his friend can read them from his head.) [see also Second Sight's "Telepathic Rapport"]
- Deep Scanning: Allows a psychic to peek into the deeper layers of a character's brain, fishing for sensitive or personal information or knowledge.
- Skillful Theft: allows the characters to gain the skill of another person present for a turn or until the psychic maintains concentration.

Creating a Gestalt:

Initiating a Gestalt is simple. The willing participants must gather and collectively enter deep trance (the process of directly connecting with the Mindspace). Inside the Mindspace, they must seek out each other's minds and connect them together through a metaphysical thread. Then, while still maintaining the connection, for a moment they all need to remove all of their mental barriers, allowing each others' thoughts to flow in freely, hopefully without giving up too much of themselves that it'd allow the rest of the Mindspace in.

Dramatic Failure: The character opens up his mind a bit -too- much, allowing in not just the thoughts of the others to flow in but also the Mindspace. He suffers the same repercussions as he would for harvesting the Mindspace. In addition, because the failure happened while in deep trance (where most of his consciousness is inside the Mindspace) his mind may get lost in the Mindspace and the character is unable to wake up until he finds his way back.
Failure: Something doesn't connect. Maybe the character drew back too soon. The Gestalt is a failure and the character wakes up immediately; he cannot try again until he has rested (ca. 1 day).
Success: The connection is established. See below for details.
Exceptional Success: The character may add his successes to the pool of another player who has not rolled yet.

Successfully establishing the Gestalt demands a 1 Willpower dot cost from each participant.

Only physics can become part of a Gestalt, and a character cannot be a member of more than one Gestalt at a time.

Gestalt evolution:

A Gestalt on the starting level possesses no more cooperative ability than a group working together normally would. The members' efforts are needed to build it up into something more advanced.

!!!!!!!!!!

Below is a list of advantages that a Gestalt group may possess, but note that these are examples of a PERFECT Gestalt; a Circle may need to spend a lot of exp and buy them up bit by bit before they can do it as described below.

Cooperative advantages:

- Gestalts only roll Initiative once, using the highest in the group. The entire Gestalt acts on this Initiative.
- A Gestalt automatically knows the relative distance of its members from each other, similar to how a body knows the position of its parts (known as kinesthesia, or proprioception). This allows it to coordinate their movements far better than it'd be possible by people relying on their normal senses. Every person automatically knows where they are compared to the others (note: only the relative distance and direction, not the exact location).
- Basic version: Anything in line of sight is automatically in line of sight for every other member of the Gestalt, as well, who are able to attack it even if they themselves cannot see it. Characters are still limited by the maximum range of their weapons or abilities when acting on this. For example, a character may shoot at an enemy that he does not see but another Gestalt member does for no penalty, but may only do that to the gun's maximum range.

Advanced version: the range modifiers are based on the distance of the character from the target who is acting as the line of sight. For example, if a character is in a closed room standing next to a Gestalt member, then another member may shoot him through the wall from 600 meters (long range) and still only make the roll for short range.

Modifiers: If the characters are still on a lower level of the synchronization, then they need to know their relative distance from each other before they can use this advantage. There needs to be a direct "chain" from the person who is seeing a target to the one who is performing the attack. Except for the first person sending the information on the target's location, each person in the chain needs to have the previous one inside his line of sight, up to the attacker.

If kinesthesia (above) was already purchased, then the Gestalt members don't need to have each others at line of sight.
- If several members of the Gestalt are in the same place then Gestalt is able to see through multiple eyes at once, granting better spatial awareness for each member. Add a bonus die for each additional member who can see the same target to any attack by a Gestalt member against that target with a ranged weapon, to a maximum of 3. This replaces the benefit the character would gain for Aiming (although the two can stack as long as the total is not greater than the maximum 3; for example, a Gestalt with 3 people (=+2 bonus) may have the person who is shooting spend a turn Aiming to reach the maximum 3).
- When using Teamwork (WoD Rulebook p. 134), every member of the Gestalt uses the Skill of the person whose one is the highest. Everyone uses their own Attribute.
ALTERNATIVELY:
The Gestalt uses a single roll. Add up the key Attributes of every member of the Gestalt, and add the skill dots of the participants whose are the highest.
- If multiple attacks are staged against one member of the Gestalt, he is only penalized for additional attacks higher the total number of the present Gestalt members who have a clear view of the battle. (See "multiple close-combat attacks", WoD Rulebook p.155). For example, someone in a 2-person Gestalt who is attacked by 3 enemies in a turn would use his full Defense against the first two, and apply the -1 penalty only to the third.

If only one member can see the attackers, the Gestalt suffers the normal penalty. However, it does not matter if the member seeing the attacker and the one being attacked are not the same person (see below).
- A character cannot be Surprised or become a victim of a Rear Attack if any member of the Gestalt is able to sense the attacker. The opponent only gets the bonus if none of the members of the Gestalt can see it coming.

Psychic advantages:

- The Gestalt can use any of its members as the conduit for its power. That character may actually be the weakest member in the Gestalt, but is still able to strike with their collective force.
- A member of the Gestalt can add the Gestalt's bonus to his mental resistance. A telepath trying to read a Gestalt member's mind will be shocked to see that the mind seems a lot stronger (and feels a lot bigger) than what'd seem reasonable for her level.

[etc.]

[storytelling option, a bit silly:]

Storytelling option: A name for your Gestalt

Many characters choose to attach a name to their Gestalt entity (or, more like, the Gestalt entity chooses a name for itself), if only because they need to be able to refer to it in a conversation and "I/we/Gestalt" is a difficult way of addressing a state of being that can not be expressed by regular pronouns. Show-off names ("The Unity"; "Legion"emotion-5.gif are as common as to-the-point ("Gestalt # 2"emotion-5.gif or silly ones ("Dave"emotion-5.gif. But the the truth is that most names are eventually shortened to something easy to use and casual by their own members; an Unit 700 team that has named their Gestalt after the official code of their group ("Infantry Unit 2/1"emotion-5.gif may shorten it to "Uni", and christening a Gestalt "The Integrated Thought Sentient Overmind" may avenge itself by its members referring to it as TITSO.

A popular method of creating a title is by amalgamating the names of the participants; for example, "Zack and Ted" or "Zack/Ted" may become "Zed".

This is by no means neccessary though, and many foundations view the practice as childlish, disrespectful, or inaccurate (the Gestalt is not actually a separate person, after all).

Derangement: Gestalt addict

A person who has been a member of a Gestalt for too long may become unwilling to leave it. In a way, the Gestalt IS addictive. The sudden abundance of information and increase to once mental capabilities, the feeling of suddenly being able to connect the dots where you have never seen the pattern before, immediately knowing the answers to everything that has ever bothered you - it's no wonder that going back to one's usual limitations may make life from a human perception look grey and pointless.

A Gestalt addict feels like this, and would do anything (go on a psychic trip to the dangerous parts of the Mindscape; jump into creating random psychic links with people) only to recapture some of that feeling. Worse, he may be longing to join a Gestalt again - any Gestalt. This is usually a bad idea.
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Vree
Thursday, February 17, 2011 2:31:28 AM
#147

Did I mention that I loved the Foundations, by the way? There's a Corrupt(?) Company, the psychic investigation group, the military strike team, it's great. Covers the archetypes and looks interesting without becoming too specific, like a proper splat should.

Don't know what you'll think of this. It's an alternative rolling mechanism I based on the points raised on the topic. (VERY bare bones)

The basic idea is to make a Talent act like an actual Attribute. A character does not need rolls to apply his Strenght to a task. With this solution, Talents do not need to either.

Instead, before you can use a Talent, you now need an activation roll.

Activating a Talent requires Resolve+Composure+Kenning. (and 1 Noema)

Dramatic Failure: The character fails to activate the power and activates a Flare instead.
Failure: The character fails to activate the power. Maybe he is too tired, maybe there is too much interference. He can try again the next turn.
Success: The power is activated.

Once the Talent is activate, it behaves like a normal atribue and can be used as such. The character is using an active Talent reflexively.
(Every psychic can attempt to use every power, even if they have 0 Talent. If their Talent is 0 they are probably only able to use it through Strenghtening (below).)

The character can maintain the power as long as he wants. He only needs to roll again if he wants to increase the intensity of the power (below). He can also have as many Talents active at the same time as he likes.

Any active Talents can be substituted for any use of the attributes that they are associated with.

Kinesis: Strenght, Dexterity
Commune: Manipulation, Presence
Awareness: Wits, Intelligence

(This is a general guideline; some options may use a different Talent, or the substitution may not be possible at all. Derived stats like Initiative or Speed are usually always unaffected.)

A character can only substitute the Talent for one attribute at once; if an activity needs both, he has to distribute his dots among the two.

The main difference in performing something with Talents is that Talents can be used at a range. Range increases with Kenning. (Also note that touching a target gives a bonus.)

Example:

Eva, a biokinetic is performing an operation, and realizes that the only way he can remove a bullet lodged in a person's brain is by trying to lift it out from there with Telekinesis.
He and asks everyone to step back. She calms her mind and begins to concentrate. She rolls Resolve+Composure+Kenning to activate her ESP (Awareness) Talent.

The roll is successful. She has access to her Awareness to its current level, which is 2. The description Awareness levels says that she is able to see throuh a person's skin as if it was X-ray at this level. (Note that if it was level 1, she wouldn't be able to do it so easilyly, but she could still try to with Strenghtenning /below/).

Now that she sees where the bullet is, she is going to perform the operation. She spends another turn activating her level 1 Kinesis. She has Medicine 4, Dexterity 3. However, Dexterity will not help her in this case. She adds Kinesis and Medicine for a dice pool of 5, and tries to remove the bullet.

Strenghtening:

A character only needs to spend an action and the Noema cost once to activate the power. However, he may roll again in order to Strenghten the power. This costs him his Action for each turn and [1 Noema each turn or 1 Noema activation only?] as long as he keeps it up.

Dice Pool: Roll Talent(?)+(???)

Each success gives +1 to the Talent for a single turn, but if the player wants to he can hold onto the bonus (especially if it was a lucky roll). A character can only maintain Strenghtenning like this for a number of turns equal to their Stamina. Each subsequent turn they are paying with either 1 Bashing damage or 1 Willpower point to keep up the effect. (psychic nosebleed)

A character can avoid this by simply re-rolling their successes every turn, but this risks of course that they will roll lower then what they needed and possibly botch an action.

How does this look in practice?

A character wishes to lift a giant rock. The rock weights 1000 lbs., too large that the character could throw it.
The storyteller determines that it will take 4 successes (or 4 combat turns) to move it from one place to another. 1000 lbs. means a Strenght requirement of 8, but the player's Kinesis is only 4. He decides to give it a try. He fails his Strenghten roll the first time: he gains some successes, but not enough to be able to lift the rock. On the second try he's got enough. He can now lift the rock, but faces an issue with only 3 Stamina. He will likely have to sacrifice a Willpower point or take 1 Bashing Damage before he can move the rock in place. He decides not to pay the price, but re-rolls his Strenghtening for the last turn instead, hoping that it will reach the required 4 extra successes. He fails, and drops the rock.

If the characters are cooperating on lifting something, you add their Kinesis ranks and extra Strenghten successes together, just as you would if they were pooling their normal attributes.

This way several telekinetics may be able to lift some incredibly heavy objects!
But look at this:
when many characters are rolling their Strenghten, re-rolling is suddenly a lot more difficult, since the players who got their best rolls on the first try are probably waiting on you, using up their maximum turns from their Stamina. You can re-roll everyone's values until you reach the neccessary number, but what if it means that one or two players go into all this with minimal bonuses? Usually, nothing. But what if one character reaches the end of his Stamina and the Bashing damage he's willing or able to take? He's going to have to re-roll his Strenghtening. And if he fails to achieve the same amount of successes? It means that the other players who haven't even reached their limit yet are forced to start rolling again too, trying to make up for the strenght now missing.The rock is probably wobbling as the characters are trying to balance it between the two of them, and the other characters flee so that they do not accidentally get hit.

Fun, isn't it?
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TheKingsRaven
Thursday, February 17, 2011 5:07:46 AM
#148

Personally I think the idea that really interested me in Gesalts is the idea that as they get stronger, and more useful, there's also a risk that they start assimilating their members personality. With some possibility for "critical mass". So however Gesalts are done, I'd want that to be included.
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Evo_Shandor
Thursday, February 17, 2011 11:54:30 AM
#149

Vree wrote:
If you don't mind me on board as a contributor, I'd love to keep cooking up more material for this.

Contribute all you want. I don't promise to use everything, but I won't likely veto anything at this point. If I don't like it, it will most likely be placed in the "Maybe" column. I'd have to really hate something to veto it this early on.

Vree wrote:

I love the general idea of the Gestalt; my most important suggestion here is to make it less like a "spirit buddy", and more of a real hive mind .

I think I like it more "hive mind" as well.
Many of your suggestions seem a bit overpowered, but the power levels can still be worked out.

I think it may work best as a communal Merit to simplify some of the game mechanics.
I recently made a Nosferatu with the "Necropolis" Merit. That Merit doesn't just increase with player's combining their ranks, but the dots actually buy specific aspects of the Necropolis (like a labyrinth or trash heap). Each aspect of the Necropolis had benefits for everyone sharing the Necropolis Merit.
Working a Gestalt in a similar way could be the answer.
Like Initiative sharing may cost one dot of the combined Gestalt Merit while shared Skills may be a variable cost limiting the number of Skill dots that can be shared at a time.

I have one big concern with all the benefits of a "hive mind" style Gestalt. Most, if not all, of the benefits sound like they would make more sense as Commune Concentrations. Maybe it is just my preconceived designs of how Psychic powers should work in the game. I know that Commune covers a bunch of what people think of when they think Psychics, but this Gestalt seems to lessen the Commune Talent by duplicating many of the effects. By basic design of the Talents, Commune is the one that would be most useful to a Circle of Psychics.

Maybe another option would be to include the Commune Talent or Concentrations as limiting factors in the Gestalt. Making the Gestalt temporary (the day) from a Commune Concentration might work. Using each success on the Concentration roll to buy effects. Of course, the Circle would contribute their Commune ranks to the roll as per normal Psychic cooperation.

Arguments for/against?

Vree wrote:
Did I mention that I loved the Foundations, by the way? There's a Corrupt(?) Company, the psychic investigation group, the military strike team, it's great. Covers the archetypes and looks interesting without becoming too specific, like a proper splat should.

I love them too. Mainly because they fill the niche of large groups without being a character requirement. I've always seen most Psychic characters being loners or belonging to small groups and didn't want to require players to pick a large social group for their character.

Vree wrote:

Don't know what you'll think of this. It's an alternative rolling mechanism I based on the points raised on the topic. (VERY bare bones)

Your alternative rules are quite different. I'm not sure what I think of them yet. I'll have to digest it a bit more.
A couple of things I notice though:
It seems you method leaves abilities more open to on-the-fly alterations in power usage as Concentrations were not mentioned (that I recall) and every effect used Talent's directly. I think this would shrink the types of Psychics down. Kinesis includes Pyro, Cryo, Electro and Telekinesis. Without Concentrations, abilities become wide-spread. Maybe I'm wrong and you didn't mean to remove Concentrations, just change how a player would activate them. More specific examples may me required.
It looks like it might eliminate Reinforcements as well (since Reinforcements enhance Attributes). Maybe it would simply compliment it as a flip-side usage, I'm not sure.

No decisions made so far on this though. Need some clarifications and to think about it. It's a big change.

TheKingsRaven wrote:
Personally I think the idea that really interested me in Gesalts is the idea that as they get stronger, and more useful, there's also a risk that they start assimilating their members personality. With some possibility for "critical mass". So however Gesalts are done, I'd want that to be included.

This might be best represented through a Psychic Derangement. When a Gestalt member has an Ego drop, he may gain a special Derangement that gives a foothold. "Overpowering Gestalt", as a Derangement, might alter the Psychic's personality and gain more power as his Ego drops. Maybe at one point (zero Ego) the Psychic is no longer himself, but an amalgam of his Circle's personalities. He becomes an "Embodied Gestalt" (a unique form of the Cursed) with many of the knowledges and abilities of the Circle. Perhaps "Embodied Gestalts" seek their independence and need to eliminate the Circle to survive. Circle members must either kill their friend in self defense or bring his old self back in some way.
I think I like it. Once Gestalts get worked out, the Derangement specifics can be worked on.
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Evo_Shandor
Thursday, February 17, 2011 3:57:19 PM
#150

TheKingsRaven wrote:
Evo_Shandor wrote:
I've almost convinced myself that a specific Advancement for Mediumship that uses Scape to create an illusion of the ghost would be fine. More likely is a Scape Advancement that simply forces the ghost's image be seen instead of being invisible.
Nudges Evo into doing what I suggest emotion-5.gif

There's a reason I didn't want to force a ghost to be seen. Ghosts are by default invisible and have to work to be visible, not the other way around. Using Scape justified the Psychic's power creating "visibility".

Alright. How about this Advancement? It works for most Awareness Concentrations.

Show (Scape)
With this Advancement, the Psychic boosts his own perceptions onto the Mindscape which reflect back into reality for all to see. Many Psychics don’t even consider this a perceptual illusion as many Scape Concentrations are. They regard it as dropping the perceptual veil for those without the sight.
By spending an additional Noema, the Psychic can let others sense what he senses. For each rank in the Scape Talent the Psychic possesses, he can share one of the 5 basic senses.
This Advancement is really only useful with Awareness Concentrations that allow the Psychic to see or hear something that a normal person wouldn’t. Concentrations that allow a Psychic to see ghosts and spirits are most common, but aura sight, precognition and remote viewing are also quite often Advanced in this way.
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